[Spellyans] ha versus hag

Christian Semmens christian.semmens at gmail.com
Fri Jul 1 15:12:26 IST 2016


I suspect the 'h' sound was barely apparent in normal speech anyway if
dialect could be used as any sort of guide to pronunciation.

Christian


On 1 July 2016 at 12:32, Jon Mills <j.mills at email.com> wrote:

> I can see that from a teacher's perspective it is convenient to have a
> nice set of regular grammatical rules to teach. But the learner actually
> needs to be taught Cornish as it used by the entire Cornish language
> community, with all its variants and idiosyncracies, no matter how awkward
> or incovenient that may seem to a teacher.
> Ol an gwella,
> Jon
>
> *Sent:* Friday, July 01, 2016 at 10:15 AM
> *From:* "Clive Baker" <clive.baker at gmail.com>
> *To:* "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] ha versus hag
> The problem seems more that for almost the last 100 years, the rule has
> been 'ha' before consonants and 'hag' before vowels' with the one exception
> of 'ha+ an' which is 'ha'n'.
> to try and change it now, whether right or wrong seems to me very
> difficult for such a tiny change....this from a teacher of the lingo
> Clive
>
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Nothing, Jan!
>> D
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 01 Jul 2016, at 10:19, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> What's wrong with using <ha> for everything?
>>
>> Jan
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 3:13 AM, Mike R <mremic01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Strachan describes it as '*ac* before vowels and the negative particles
>>> *ny*, *na*, and sometimes before other consonants.'
>>>
>>> Here are a few examples from the Four Branches:
>>>
>>> 'Ac ual y byd yn ymwarandaw a llef yr erchwys...'
>>>
>>> Would we treat the u in *ual* as a vowel here? I imagine that it would
>>> have been more of a bilabial at the time, unlike the modern f. *Ac ual*
>>> seems consistent, but it's often just *a* before other words that begin
>>> with u/v.
>>>
>>> 'Y march a gymerth, ac racdaw yd aeth.'
>>>
>>> 'Ac rac diruawr wres, y kyrchwys y bleit a'e yscwyd a'y tharaw gantaw
>>> allan, ac yn y ol ynteu y wreic.'
>>>
>>> But then:
>>>
>>> '...a rac guelet gwr kyuurd a thi yn diuetha pryf mor dielw a hwnnw.'
>>>
>>> 'A Riannon' is used fairly consistently.
>>>
>>> 'Ac nachaf y liw a'y wed a'y ansawd yn atueilaw o'y charyat, hyt nat oed
>>> hawd y adnabot.'
>>>
>>> Is *nachaf* being treating like a negative particle here? I thought it
>>> meant something like 'behold', but maybe it has some obscure origin in a
>>> negative construction.
>>>
>>> So Strachan gives us more information than Evans, but even he doesn't
>>> give us the specifics. It seems that Middle Welsh scribes usually abided by
>>> the rule of using *ac* before a vowel, a negative particle (and by
>>> extension, sometimes *n*), and even sometimes r. We might find even
>>> more examples digging into other texts. Over time, I hope to narrow in on
>>> details like this, but it's a daunting task.
>>>
>>> There is also an instance of the phrase 'a'n kynnadyl yna yn y lle hon'
>>> in the White Book version of PPD, where the Red Book has 'ac an kynnadyl
>>> yna yn y lle hon.' Thomson's edition seems to take *a'n* as the
>>> conjunction *a* with an infixed possessive *'n* (from *an)*, but I
>>> suppose it could just as easily be 'an kynnadyl' with no conjunction. If we
>>> accept Thomson's interpretation, we see two different ways to deal with
>>> *a/ac* in this situation, each taken by a different scribe in order to
>>> write the same sentence.
>>>
>>> Sorry to spend so much time on Welsh matters. I suppose my point is that
>>> the rules for *a(c)* aren't as clear cut as we'd like them to be. But
>>> that's okay. There's enough inconsistency that it's difficult to say that
>>> one way or the other is 'wrong', but we can certainly look to the
>>> tendencies of the texts and try to imitate them. I think you've got the
>>> right idea, Nicholas. I have much more confidence in the Cornish described
>>> in Desky Kernowek than what I see in other books due to the attestations,
>>> and my own preference would be to proscribe rules for revived Cornish based
>>> on the texts. At the same time, if everyone else finds *hag* acceptable
>>> in all environments, I would be willing to go along with that, provided
>>> future grammars make note of the fact that this was not the case prior to
>>> the revival.
>>>
>>> Does vowel length have any influence on the frequency of *ha *vs. *hag*?
>>> Perhaps a diphthong at the beginning of the following word?
>>> ​.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>
>>
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