[Spellyans] Yn...wir?

Harry Hawkey bendyfrog at live.com
Fri Mar 24 11:58:22 GMT 2017

Sorry for starting the discussion and then not replying very much last night (bleddy sheep!)

Harry Hawkey wrote:
However, Lhuyd's AB has (at least) 5 attestations of 'yn wir'[...]
In one of these, Lhuyd quite clearly specifies that this is the adverbial particle rather than the preposition
(in the section entitled 'Of the Adverb and Interjection’.

Michael Everson wrote:
Well, in 248b he refers to this particle in a paragraph where he gives "en fìr", "en ſplan", “en ’lannith”, “en lûan”.
Two paragraphs later in 248c he gives “en ụir” and “en dhiùᵹel” neither of which have the mixed mutation.

Harry Hawkey wrote:
Not quite sure what you mean[. ..]
***Please explain***

Seriously, am I just being dim here? I fail to see the relevance of your examples. "en fìr" has no mutation. "en ſplan" has no mutation.
“en ’lanni[t?]h” is lenited. “En lûan” is not mutated. “en ụir” and “en dhiùᵹel” are both lenited.

Why would any of these examples show mixed mutation,  since Late....I mean 'Late'...I mean 17th century and later....Cornish appears to have (usually) replaced the mixed mutation with lenition?

What exactly is your point? Or shall I just keep guessing? :-)
(The smiley is so that my confusion is not mistaken for aggression...)

Michael Everson wrote:

I don’t know whether Lhuyd could distinguish what we write as “in” vs what we write as “yn” or not.

I think, reading AB pg 248 and pg 249 chapter IX 'Of the Preposition" implies that he understood the difference.
But I don't know either.

Harry Hawkey wrote:

......late Cornish.......

Michael Everson wrote:

I don’t usually consider “Late Cornish” to be a different language.

Me neither. I do find it a useful fiction, however, as well as a quick way of writing  "the Cornish language from sometime in the early 1600s to roughly 1800".
Indeed, it seems Nicholas Williams agrees with me:

Nicholas Williams wrote:

It is common in Late Cornish to use lenition where mixed mutation would have been expected
in Middle Cornish.

We could perhaps start a new topic for this: 'Middle and late Cornish - different languages or dialect continuum?'.
I suppose I did bring this on myself by welcoming pedantic corrections...

Michael Everson wrote:

There are “late" features found in Pascon agan Arluth.

Indeed, depending on what you define as a 'Late' feature. But can you find any examples of mixed mutation being replaced by lenitions in PAA?
I couldn't find any.

Nicholas Williams wrote:

There seem to be no examples of yn wh- from an adjective beginning with
gw- nor of yn h- from an adjective with radical g-.

I couldn't find any either. But PAA 232.3 has 'yn whas' (customarily? usually? Any suggestions?)

Nicholas Williams wrote:

Lhuyd’s en uîr is so well attested as not to be a mistake.

Do you mean he heard it spoken in Cornwall and transcribed it correctly?

Nicholas Williams wrote:

Lhuyd’s use of lenition after en is best explained as the extension of lenition probably by Lhuyd at the
expense of the mixed mutation.

Erm...do you mean Lhuyd made it up himself, and did not hear it spoken in Cornwall? This appears to contradict what was written above...Or am
I being a bit slow again?

Nicholas Williams wrote:

At all events it seems that inherited yn gwir looked like the particle yn + gwir
to Lhuyd, and in consequence he mutated with lenition.

Implies 'yn wir' is an invention of Lhuyds...?

Do you think he actually heard it spoken, or do you think he invented it himself?

Nicholas Williams wrote:

gen hloh
seith mbledhan
ni hlew
yn whedhan

Yes, I'm pretty cautious of things that we only find attested in Lhuyd because of examples such as this, which is one of the
reasons I started the topic.

Dan Prohaska wrote:

[...] this is what RLC speakers have been following, e.g. using ‹gwir› without the particle

This seems like probably the least controversial and most authentic approach for R'L'C.

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