[Spellyans] PS re last native speakers
Ken MacKinnon
ken at ferintosh.org
Fri Mar 24 16:21:07 GMT 2017
Craig, han gowetha,
In earlier times the parish church maintained the records for the whole
parish (Meths and all). At this period, I am not sure whether the C of E
had that legal obligation but it is well worth a try. It would be good
to know the actual date.
I conducted an introductory linguistics class (on the topic of Language
Death) on the centenary date of John Daveys decease. It might still be
possible to commemorate Richard Manns and someone might be able to put on
a similar class (Jon?).
- Ken
From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig
Weatherhill
Sent: 24 March 2017 13:09
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] PS re last native speakers
That was Richard Mann, Ken. I haven't looked for his birth/death details.
I expect the first will be in the Zennor parish records, and the latter in
St Just. However, if he was a Methodist (we don't know), would they
necessarily be in the Anglican records?
Anowr,
Craig
On 2017 Mer 24, at 12:49, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
Craig,
Below you refer to at least two native speakers did not die until the early
years of the 20th century. One was still alive (aged 80) in 1914, 10 years
after Jenner's handbook.
Do we know his name and place of decease? Is there a record of death or
burial?
- Ken
From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig
Weatherhill
Sent: 24 March 2017 10:34
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Yn...wir?
I'e always maintained a soft spot for Late Cornish and have to say that the
Late version of SWF actually does look rather good - far easier on the eye
than Main Form.
Of course, it's not a "different language". It's merely a later development
of an ever-evolving tongue. That it's associated with West Cornwall is, of
course, because native speakers tended to be located there as the relentless
domination of English pushed its use ever further west.
There is no evidence to suggest that it survived well into the 19th century,
and that at least two native speakers did not die until the early years of
the 20th century. One was still alive (aged 80) in 1914, 10 years after
Jenner's handbook. He stated that Cornish was the language used between
children at play in the parish of Zennor where he was brought up, especially
Boswednack, so he would have known Anne Berryman and John Davey (senior and
junior). This would have been during the 1840s. The other lived within
sight of my house: Elizabeth Vingoe of Higher Boswarva, Madron, who died in
1902. It was her nephew, Richard Hall, who interviewed Richard Mann of
Boswednack and latterly St Just, in 1914.
We used to think that Mann's forename was John, but that was his brother who
emigrated to America. John Ellery Bodrugan discovered that his name was
Richard.
The 18th and 19th century antiquarians only seem to have looked around the
fishing ports, like Mousehole and Newlyn for native speakers. They never
went near remote parishes like Zennor, or the moorland parts of Madron!
There's a very strange late 18th century discrepancy, in that Dr William
Borlase, rector of Ludgvan, stated that he knew of no one who could speak
Cornish, and yet his own brother Walter, just 3 miles away at Castle
Horneck, not only knew Dolly Pentreath, but wrote of her, and her Cornish
speech to Daines Barrington! It's not as though the two brothers never
conversed. They must have done, as William built his mineral grotto at
Castle Horneck (it's still there!).
Last year, the St Ives Times and Echo published an extensive article over 2
weeks about John Davey, Junior, and J. Hobson Matthews who, it seems,
conversed at length in Cornish. The article was entitled "The Last
Conversation in Cornish" and is quite detailed.
Craig
On 2017 Mer 24, at 09:47, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
Lowena dhe whei oll!
Thank you for the interesting discussion. Very insightful and, as usual,
Nicholass examples help a lot. And indeed this is what RLC speakers have
been following, e.g. using gwir without the particle, dropping mixed
mutation in favour of lenition, except common phrases such as et ta.
On 23 Mar 2017, at 21:45, Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com> wrote:
On 23 Mar 2017, at 20:08, Harry Hawkey <bendyfrog at live.com> wrote:
Not quite sure what you mean. The adverbial particle 'yn' does not seem to
cause mixed mutation in late Cornish. Instead, if Lhuyd's examples are
anything to go by, the mixed mutation is replaced by lenition, at least
after 'yn.
I dont usually consider Late Cornish to be a different language. There
are late" features found in Pascon agan Arluth. Too much is made of the
differences when its clear there are continua of varying features in the
texts we have.
Indeed. What is often called a Late feature is often something Nance
simply didnt standardise in Unified Cornish. I do not consider Middle
Cornish to be a different language from Late Cornish in as much as I do not
consider literary Welsh to be a different language from a colloquial and/or
dialectal form of Modern Welsh. I enjoy writing the Late Cornish based
variant of the SWF because this is the pronunciation I prefer and I also
like sticking up for the underdog ;-)
Typically we have yn tâ well, yn few alive in Cornish though yn
vew is also attested. Throughout all MSS of all periods we have a lack of
expected mutation written.
Are you saying that, because there is no mixed mutation, it is not in fact
the adverbial particle, but something else? Please explain.
I dont know whether Lhuyd could distinguish what we write as in vs what
we write as yn or not.
Michael Everson
In the SWF/L we write en for both.
Dan
_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
_____
This email has been scanned by Netintelligence
http://www.netintelligence.com/email
_____
_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
_____
This email has been scanned by Netintelligence
http://www.netintelligence.com/email
_____
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://kernowek.net/pipermail/spellyans_kernowek.net/attachments/20170324/400e3f3c/attachment.htm>
More information about the Spellyans
mailing list