[Spellyans] Richard Mann

Fri Mar 24 17:36:02 GMT 2017

If this Richard Mann was 25 or so in 1891 he would not be the octogenarian of 1914.  Might be a son or a relative?

Ken

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Jon Mills
Sent: 24 March 2017 16:51
To: spellyans at kernowek.net
Cc: 'Standard Cornish discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Richard Mann

Craig, ha’n gowetha,
Might this be the Richard Mann mentioned in the 1891 Census (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kayhin/1854c.html )?
Treen (Private House),1,Richard Mann,Head,M,25,,Farm Labourer,Employed,Zennor Cornwall,,
,,,Elizabeth Mann,Wife,M,,31,,,Zennor Cornwall,,
Ol an gwella,
Jon

Sent: Friday, March 24, 2017 at 4:21 PM
From: "Ken MacKinnon" <ken at ferintosh.org>
To: "'Standard Cornish discussion list'" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] PS re last native speakers

Craig, ha’n gowetha,

In earlier times the parish church maintained the records for the whole parish (Meths and all).  At this period, I am not sure whether the C of E had that legal obligation – but it is well worth a try.    It would be good to know the actual date.

I conducted an introductory linguistics class (on the topic of Language Death) on the centenary date of John Davey’s decease.  It might still be possible to commemorate Richard Mann’s – and someone might be able to put on a similar class (Jon?).

-        Ken

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill
Sent: 24 March 2017 13:09
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] PS re last native speakers

That was Richard Mann, Ken.  I haven't looked for his birth/death details.  I expect the first will be in the Zennor parish records, and the latter in St Just.  However, if he was a Methodist (we don't know), would they necessarily be in the Anglican records?

Anowr,

Craig

On 2017 Mer 24, at 12:49, Ken MacKinnon wrote:

Craig,

Below you refer to ‘at least two native speakers did not die until the early years of the 20th century.  One was still alive (aged 80) in 1914, 10 years after Jenner's handbook.‘

Do we know his name and place of decease?   Is there a record of death or burial?

-        Ken

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill
Sent: 24 March 2017 10:34
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Yn...wir?

I'e always maintained a soft spot for Late Cornish and have to say that the Late version of SWF actually does look rather good - far easier on the eye than Main Form.

Of course, it's not a "different language".  It's merely a later development of an ever-evolving tongue.  That it's associated with West Cornwall is, of course, because native speakers tended to be located there as the relentless domination of English pushed its use ever further west.

There is no evidence to suggest that it survived well into the 19th century, and that at least two native speakers did not die until the early years of the 20th century.  One was still alive (aged 80) in 1914, 10 years after Jenner's handbook.  He stated that Cornish was the language used between children at play in the parish of Zennor where he was brought up, especially Boswednack, so he would have known Anne Berryman and John Davey (senior and junior).  This would have been during the 1840s.  The other lived within sight of my house:  Elizabeth Vingoe of Higher Boswarva, Madron, who died in 1902.  It was her nephew, Richard Hall, who interviewed Richard Mann of Boswednack and latterly St Just, in 1914.

We used to think that Mann's forename was John, but that was his brother who emigrated to America.  John Ellery Bodrugan discovered that his name was Richard.

The 18th and 19th century antiquarians only seem to have looked around the fishing ports, like Mousehole and Newlyn for native speakers.  They never went near remote parishes like Zennor, or the moorland parts of Madron!  There's a very strange late 18th century discrepancy, in that Dr William Borlase, rector of Ludgvan, stated that he knew of no one who could speak Cornish, and yet his own brother Walter, just 3 miles away at Castle Horneck, not only knew Dolly Pentreath, but wrote of her, and her Cornish speech to Daines Barrington!  It's not as though the two brothers never conversed.  They must have done, as William built his mineral grotto at Castle Horneck (it's still there!).

Last year, the St Ives Times and Echo published an extensive article over 2 weeks about John Davey, Junior, and J. Hobson Matthews who, it seems, conversed at length in Cornish.  The article was entitled "The Last Conversation in Cornish" and is quite detailed.

Craig

On 2017 Mer 24, at 09:47, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

Lowena dhe whei oll! 

Thank you for the interesting discussion. Very insightful and, as usual, Nicholas’s examples help a lot. And indeed this is what RLC speakers have been following, e.g. using ‹gwir› without the particle, dropping mixed mutation in favour of lenition, except common phrases such as ‹et ta›. 

On 23 Mar 2017, at 21:45, Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com> wrote:

On 23 Mar 2017, at 20:08, Harry Hawkey <bendyfrog at live.com> wrote:

Not quite sure what you mean. The adverbial particle 'yn' does not seem  to cause mixed mutation in late Cornish. Instead, if Lhuyd's examples are anything to go by, the mixed mutation is replaced by lenition, at least after 'yn’.

I don’t usually consider “Late Cornish” to be a different language. There are “late" features found in Pascon agan Arluth. Too much is made of the differences when it’s clear there are continua of varying features in the texts we have.

Indeed. What is often called a “Late” feature is often something Nance simply didn’t standardise in Unified Cornish. I do not consider Middle Cornish to be a different language from Late Cornish in as much as I do not consider literary Welsh to be a different language from a colloquial and/or dialectal form of Modern Welsh. I enjoy writing the Late Cornish based variant of the SWF because this is the pronunciation I prefer and I also like sticking up for the underdog ;-) 

Typically we have “yn tâ” ‘well’, “yn few” ‘alive’ in Cornish though “yn vew” is also attested. Throughout all MSS of all periods we have a lack of expected mutation written. 

Are you saying that, because there is no mixed mutation, it is not in fact the adverbial particle, but something else? Please explain.

I don’t know whether Lhuyd could distinguish what we write as “in” vs what we write as “yn” or not.
Michael Everson

In the SWF/L we write ‹en› for both. 

Dan

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