[Spellyans] Yn...wir?

Clive Baker clive.baker at gmail.com
Fri Mar 24 19:25:13 GMT 2017


yes Craig and that includes me in my hospital bed....give me summat to get
my teeth into...heheh
kemereugh wyth
Clive

On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Ken MacKinnon <ken at ferintosh.org> wrote:

> *Craig,*
>
> *If you can manage to scan the pages, I am sure that we would all be very
> greatly appreciative.*
>
> -        *Ken*
>
>
>
> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] *On Behalf Of *Craig
> Weatherhill
> *Sent:* 24 March 2017 13:11
>
> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] Yn...wir?
>
>
>
> Typo…..!  It should be NOW!
>
>
>
> You might get them from the St Ives Times & Echo office, or I might be
> able to scan them in from the copies I have here.  If they'll fit onto an
> A4 scanner, because that's all I have.
>
>
>
> Anowr,
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2017 Mer 24, at 12:38, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>
>
>
> *Craig,*
>
> *‘… no evidence…’  or: NOW evidence?*
>
>
>
> *The articles in the St Ives Times & Echo look intriguing.  Can they be
> accessed?*
>
>
>
> -        *An ken Ken*
>
> -
>
> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net
> <spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net>] *On Behalf Of *Herbie Blackburn
> *Sent:* 24 March 2017 10:53
> *To:* 'Standard Cornish discussion list'
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] Yn...wir?
>
>
>
> Great piece of history – thanks Craig.
>
>
>
> eMail: kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com
>
> P Please consider the environment before printing this eMail –  try
> re-cycling your clutter
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net
> <spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net>] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weatherhill
> *Sent:* 24 March 2017 10:34
> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] Yn...wir?
>
>
>
> I'e always maintained a soft spot for Late Cornish and have to say that
> the Late version of SWF actually does look rather good - far easier on the
> eye than Main Form.
>
>
>
> Of course, it's not a "different language".  It's merely a later
> development of an ever-evolving tongue.  That it's associated with West
> Cornwall is, of course, because native speakers tended to be located there
> as the relentless domination of English pushed its use ever further west.
>
> There is no evidence to suggest that it survived well into the 19th
> century, and that at least two native speakers did not die until the early
> years of the 20th century.  One was still alive (aged 80) in 1914, 10 years
> after Jenner's handbook.  He stated that Cornish was the language used
> between children at play in the parish of Zennor where he was brought up,
> especially Boswednack, so he would have known Anne Berryman and John Davey
> (senior and junior).  This would have been during the 1840s.  The other
> lived within sight of my house:  Elizabeth Vingoe of Higher Boswarva,
> Madron, who died in 1902.  It was her nephew, Richard Hall, who interviewed
> Richard Mann of Boswednack and latterly St Just, in 1914.
>
>
>
> We used to think that Mann's forename was John, but that was his brother
> who emigrated to America.  John Ellery Bodrugan discovered that his name
> was Richard.
>
>
>
> The 18th and 19th century antiquarians only seem to have looked around the
> fishing ports, like Mousehole and Newlyn for native speakers.  They never
> went near remote parishes like Zennor, or the moorland parts of Madron!
> There's a very strange late 18th century discrepancy, in that Dr William
> Borlase, rector of Ludgvan, stated that he knew of no one who could speak
> Cornish, and yet his own brother Walter, just 3 miles away at Castle
> Horneck, not only knew Dolly Pentreath, but wrote of her, and her Cornish
> speech to Daines Barrington!  It's not as though the two brothers never
> conversed.  They must have done, as William built his mineral grotto at
> Castle Horneck (it's still there!).
>
>
>
> Last year, the St Ives Times and Echo published an extensive article over
> 2 weeks about John Davey, Junior, and J. Hobson Matthews who, it seems,
> conversed at length in Cornish.  The article was entitled "The Last
> Conversation in Cornish" and is quite detailed.
>
>
>
>
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2017 Mer 24, at 09:47, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>
>
>
> Lowena dhe whei oll!
>
>
>
> Thank you for the interesting discussion. Very insightful and, as usual,
> Nicholas’s examples help a lot. And indeed this is what RLC speakers have
> been following, e.g. using ‹*gwir*› without the particle, dropping mixed
> mutation in favour of lenition, except common phrases such as ‹*et ta*›.
>
>
>
> On 23 Mar 2017, at 21:45, Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 23 Mar 2017, at 20:08, Harry Hawkey <bendyfrog at live.com> wrote:
>
>
> Not quite sure what you mean. The adverbial particle 'yn' does not seem
>  to cause mixed mutation in late Cornish. Instead, if Lhuyd's examples are
> anything to go by, the mixed mutation is replaced by lenition, at least
> after 'yn’.
>
>
> I don’t usually consider “Late Cornish” to be a different language. There
> are “late" features found in Pascon agan Arluth. Too much is made of the
> differences when it’s clear there are continua of varying features in the
> texts we have.
>
>
>
> Indeed. What is often called a “Late” feature is often something Nance
> simply didn’t standardise in Unified Cornish. I do not consider Middle
> Cornish to be a different language from Late Cornish in as much as I do not
> consider literary Welsh to be a different language from a colloquial and/or
> dialectal form of Modern Welsh. I enjoy writing the Late Cornish based
> variant of the SWF because this is the pronunciation I prefer and I also
> like sticking up for the underdog ;-)
>
>
>
> Typically we have “yn tâ” ‘well’, “yn few” ‘alive’ in Cornish though “yn
> vew” is also attested. Throughout all MSS of all periods we have a lack of
> expected mutation written.
>
>
> Are you saying that, because there is no mixed mutation, it is not in fact
> the adverbial particle, but something else? Please explain.
>
>
> I don’t know whether Lhuyd could distinguish what we write as “in” vs what
> we write as “yn” or not.
> Michael Everson
>
>
>
> In the SWF/L we write ‹*en*› for both.
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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