[Spellyans] "Tribe"

Mon Feb 17 15:38:22 GMT 2020

What is a culverhouse Craig please...(cos I are iggorant)?

On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 3:12 PM Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
wrote:

> Where “hill” really means “slope” or “hillside”, the Signage Panel has
> been using a number of words: <mena> as the shortened form of <menydh> -
> “hillside” appears to be its meaning in place-names and street-names- ;
> <run>, and <riw>.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 2020 Hwe 16, at 10:49, ken at ferintosh.org wrote:
>
> A gowetha,
>
> Regarding the translation into Cornish of the English place-name element
> ‘edge’, the Cornish ‘amal’ might be a possibility, since it relates to a
> feature with different sloped sides. (Cuestaform)  This is the case with
> the ‘edges’ flanking the Pennines, and the Weald.   If Mujoven relates to
> similar slopes either side this would better fit such features as the
> Lincoln Edge and Nuneaton Ridge.
>
> The Cornish words for hill comprise a group which does not exactly match
> the English group of ‘hill-words’  in terms of semantic range / meaning
> .In much the same way, the group of English words for family relationships
> does not match the Russian group, which is much larger and more complex,
> with different semantic range.
>
> These differences tell us something about the cultures of the
> language-groups who developed the naming groups in the first place.
>
> I wonder how sensitive to this issue is the SWF place-name group  is in
> providing a translation for a place-name or road with ‘hill’ in it?  i.e.
> firstly, just what sort of a hill is it, and what then is the best fit from
> the words available in Cornish?   I wonder just how they would translate
> Skidden Hill in St Ives compared with, say Camborne Hill.  (Trevithick’s
> Puffing Devil’ could tackle the latter but would probably find the former
> more problematic.)
>
> Just a thought – an ken Ken
>
> *From:* Spellyans <spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net> *On Behalf Of *Craig
> Weatherhill
> *Sent:* 15 February 2020 22:03
> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] "Tribe"
>
> Oh, I’d love to have a copy of that!  You beauty!  It was that book and
> its follow-up, ’The Moon of Gomrath’, that gave me the idea for my own
> Lyonesse Stone trilogy.  I thought: if Garner can do that with one legend
> of Cheshire, what can I achieve with West Penwith?  I thought about it for
> years before I actually did it, especially as I didn’t want my books to
> appear derivative.
>
> Have you read the (eventual) conclusion to Garner’s trilogy, 'Bonelands’?
> VERY thought-provoking.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 2020 Hwe 15, at 12:36, Ian Jackson <iacobianus at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> In my unpublished translation of Alan Garner’s *The Weirdstone of
> Brisingamen *I have used An Vùjoven for ‘The Edge’ (referring to Alderley
> Edge in Cheshire) where the action of the book is set.
>
> Ian Jackson
>
> *From:* Spellyans <spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net> *On Behalf Of *
> ken at ferintosh.org
> *Sent:* 15 February 2020 12:31
> *To:* 'Standard Cornish discussion list' <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] "Tribe"
>
> Craig, and colleagues,
> I also very strongly back this idea.   These names ate in fact reported in
> written texts, if that is the criterion for acceptance, as they appear on
> maps and official documents of all ages, almost invariably dated, and hence
> provide  dated evidence of sociolinguistic change.
>
> A list of such words/elements would thus be invaluable as a source of
> otherwise missing lexicon, and as a resource for research into linguistic
> change.
>
> A  working list might be a good start on this, Craig, and I would most
> enthusiastically urge you to undertake it.  I for one would be up for
> collaboration on its use in linguistic landscape, and glottochronology
> research.
>
> Some while ago I was searching for another word for ‘ridge’.  I knew I had
> come across one somewhere.  ‘Mujoven’ here fills that gap.
>
>
>    - An ken Ken
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Spellyans <spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net> *On Behalf Of *Craig
> Weatherhill
> *Sent:* 14 February 2020 14:06
> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] "Tribe"
>
> As I’ve always said, Dan, when looking the corpus of Cornish, never forget
> place-name evidence.  There are numerous words in those that do not appear
> in what texts remain to us.  Therefore, in my view, they should be regarded
> as textual evidence.
>
> Do words like <kevammok>, “fight, battle”, <kevar>, “joint tillage>,
> <mujoven>, “ridge” appear in textual work?  I don’t think they do, but here
> they are in our place-names and field-names.  I can produce a whole list of
> them if required.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2020 Hwe 13, at 09:24, Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
> wrote:
>
> Craig,
>
> Thanks for another one of your gems…
>
>
>
> On 12.02.2020, at 21:40, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org> wrote:
>
> In ‘Desky Kernowek’, Nicholas cites two words to translate “tribe”:
> Nance’s <*lyth*> (< OC <*leid*>), and <*tryb*> (Tregear’s <*trib*>), but
> there is a third noun that we could readily use in revived Cornish.
>
>
> Yes, the OC has ‹leid›, which Ken George and José Calvete have both
> emended to *loid, which would tie into Welsh ‹llwyth› and Old Irish
> ‹lucht›, as well as Gaulish ‹luxtos›. Perhaps assuming this emendation from
> ei to *oi is, though possible, not necessary as we have Middle Breton
> ‹leiz› (Modern Breton ‹leizh›), so a Cornish *leyth is conceivable. The ei
> > *oi theory may be supported by another word in the OC
> ‹luid› “procinctus/furdlingc” meaning “battle-aray”, though this invites
> questioning.
>
>
>
> This word is <*cordh*> (commonly reducing to <*cor’*>), pl. <*corthow*>,
> gender unclear.
>
>
>
> This word is usually given as masculine in the Cornish dictionaries, but
> Welsh ‹cordd› is feminine.
>
>
>
> It occurs in two Cornish place-names: Trigg (pagus Tricurius C7;
> Trigorscire c.881), the Hundred or Keverang of North Cornwall; and
> Langorthou 1310, the site of Fowey church.  It also occurs in Brittany as
> Trégor, evidently and like Kernev and Domnonèe,  a cross-channel
> transference.
>
> <*cordh, cor’*> also forms part of OC <*coscor*>, “family, retinue”
> (place-name: Bownds an Coscar, Towednack 1672); and MC <*corlan*>,
> “cemetery” (Welsh: <*corddlan*>).  Translating as “clan, tribe, family,
> army”, <*cordh*> has cognates in Welsh <*cordd*>, Old Breton <*cor*> and
> early Irish <*cuire*>, “host, troop”.
>
> In the name Trigg, this indicates a Hundred or Keverang that could muster
> three war-hosts and interestingly enough, this component of Cornwall’s
> original six Hundreds was later divided into three (Trigg, Lesnewth and
> Stratton).  Indeed <*keverang*> itself has cognates in Welsh (<*cyfrang*>,
> “meeting, encounter, battle”) and Middle Breton (<*cuuranc*> “military
> assembly”).  In Roman Gaul, we also find the Tricorii and the Petrucorii.
>
> It’s also interesting that in these names <*try, tri*> does not cause 3rd
> state mutation, but 2nd state.  Furthermore, where it occurs in the hill
> name Dry Carn (Tricarn 1300), “three (Bronze Age) cairns”, it causes no
> mutation at all in 6 surviving attestations spanning as many centuries.
>
> I see no reason why <*cordh, cor’*>, pl. <*cordhow*> “tribe, clan,
> war-host” cannot be accepted into revived Cornish.
>
> Craig
>
>
> There are more words that have been used for “tribe” is Cornish:
>
> ‹ehen› “sort; variety; kind; class; manner; genus; clan; tribe; species;
> family; kindred; kin; category; genre; strain; type.”
>
> ‹gwely› “bed; layer; stratum; tribe; family; afterbirth; placenta.”
>
> ‹kenedhel› “(*age-group of family*) generation; clan; tribe; kindred;
> kinsfolk; nation; (*kind*) race.”
>
> ‹kiwses› “(*political*) state; nation; people; community; tribe;
> citizens.” (analogous to Welsh ‹ciwdod› < Latin ‹civitate(m)›).
>
> ‹cor(dh)› and ‹leyth› which you already mentioned.
>
> ‹pobel› “people; folk; race; public; populace; nation; tribe; crowd;
> inhabitants.”
>
> ‹trib› “tribe; nation; genus.”
>
> ‹tüs› “men; people; persons; folk; humans; human beings; guys; mortals;
> personages; populace; tribe; family; relatives; nation; wights.”
>
> Dan
>
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