[Spellyans] Grammar

Wed Jan 22 14:43:35 GMT 2020

And that diatribe and tone is exactly what I mean and why I do not normally participate in these all too often uncivil discussions. 

From: Spellyans <spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net> On Behalf Of Clive Baker
Sent: 22 January 2020 13:51
To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Grammar

I really do read some tripe on this medium... An Kylgh, of which I was a founder member, existed about 5 minutes before the evicted Hilary Shaw the brilliant Unified teacher... they (Rael and Peter Harvey) attempted to transliterate Hilary's teaching books and when she refused, after threatening them all with legal ac tion, she was removed . Because I agreed with Hilary, and supported her legal action, I was left her books and their copyright  on her death,  Iagreed with Hilkary's point of view..that the SWF was at that point meaningless and superfluid.If anything it has gone backwards since then, 

 with the unvoted for changes in 2014

Agan Tavas agreed to the SWF only because it included the trad graphs and Late graphs. Under your watch Jenefer at Maga, slowly but surely all the agreement was removed clause by clause until we are left with the tragedy of today's excuse for Cornish.. 

Of course we need more Cornish speakers, but you dont achieve that by dividing the diaspora in the way you have done...you cannot make rules and then assume you can destroy them and and expect things to stay as they were. 

Whatever Agan Tavas was at its beginning it has been for many years now, what it is today, and whether we like it or not, it has become the protector of our traditional Language, since no-one else has taken that role, and many others seem hellbent on destroying it.and its beautiful idiomatic structure...in support of that, just look at the atrocious and laughable Cornish you produced in An Kevren Jenefer .There were enough errors to write a book about! So if that is what you're teaching, I feel sorry for the future generations!

On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 11:05 AM Raymond Chubb <ray at spyrys.org <mailto:ray at spyrys.org> > wrote:

Jenefer’s view on this may be a fair one although the SWF(m) is for public use and statutory education only. At the beginning there was never an agenda to marginalise everything else, including even elements of the SWF agreement, but that seems to be the agenda for An Kylgh, otherwise how do you explain the omissions in their dictionary. By the way AT has always supported as well as Unified, Late Cornish when spelt in a traditional way and we only signed up for SWF 2008 not the cobbled together and biased review of 2014. Also, it was An Kelgh that existed before the SWF.

On 22Gen2020, at 10:33, jeneferlowe at gmail.com <mailto:jeneferlowe at gmail.com>  wrote:

Could we perhaps stop re-writing history? An Kylgh existed way before the SWF. It was, and still is, a teachers’ group originally in the Falmouth area – now Falmouth to Camborne. As you say they largely used Unified to begin with. All groups signed up to the SWF and the Kylgh began to support the SWF and use it for classes, which is absolutely their right and frankly a lot more honest than signing up to the SWF and continuing to work against it as others have done. They are most certainly not zealots and did not form to promote SWF. They simply felt that having come to a compromise solution we should actually use it. They are still simply a teaching body. I have taught happily for them using SWF with beginners – although with beginners I use very little written at all - and including late variants alongside middle, and using all orthographies with the 4th grade.

This sort of mis-representation is appallingly unhelpful and simply wrong. As Agan Tavas began life as an organisation to promote spoken Cornish and later morphed into a Unified support group, thereby losing quite a few people who wished to remain open-minded, criticising another group for adopting a certain orthography is a bit rich too.

I know I sound a bit evangelical but surely we should by now have got beyond worrying about how we spell anything and put our efforts into welcoming everyone and ensuring they speak the language – if not it will forever remain largely an academic hobby. If an earlier generation put revived Cornish on it’s feet, we are in huge danger of being the generation that prevented it from learning to run! 

Jenefer

From: Spellyans <spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net> > On Behalf Of Raymond Chubb
Sent: 21 January 2020 09:03
To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net> >
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Grammar

I should perhaps re-think my statement that the SWF Learner’ Dictionary is only intended for those who come from a KK background. A KK mind set perhaps. The dictionary is published by An Kylgh Kernewek. This organisation was formed by a group of people who thought, as did the original promoters think for KK, that the SWF, main graphs only, should replace everything else that had gone before. Because none of the other groups were promoting this idea they formed their own group. Like a Christian sect that Ken described they became zealots for SWF(m).

What is unfortunate is that Clive and myself and the late great Hilary Shaw taught many of them in Unified. All the lessons about the wisdom of using traditionally based forms seem to have been forgotten. It is clear that their strategy has not worked, perhaps they will have a rethink when a third edition of the dictionary is produced.

On 17Gen2020, at 12:42, Clive Baker <clive.baker at gmail.com <mailto:clive.baker at gmail.com> > wrote:

well as a teacher of Cornish of  some 20 years standing now, I, although teaching Unified, the tried and well attested form of our beloved language, inform my students of the other varieties, explaining the history and so-called development of this language, and why I choose this form over the others... I advise them to investigate on their own behalves and so far all, or a very large majority have been in accord within my own beliefs.

I explain that in some ways we should treat the other forms as dialects of Cornish, as even their pronunciation and grammar varies from our own original attested pronunciations, and those we can still hear in the English dialect around us. 

Now as one of the larger groups of users, we share everything we sometimes have to make up to suit neologisms... however we are faced with complete secrecy from the 'Kemyn ' group of supporters including I am afraid to say the so called SWF group who randomly invent new words when there are perfectly good words already in existence, if they but bother to look and learn. Unfortunately, the SWF was originally constructed to include Traditional Cornish and Late or Modern Cornish users... however all recognition of the varieties of the SWF have magically disappeared from the powers that be ...it is as if they dont want us to be combined at all and as Jenefer has said to have us at each others throats... Well that is nothing new to me as it has been ongoing since 1985 , and because of this and the errors built into both Kemyn and its grandchild the SWF, is it any wonder that good solid standard forms like KS come into being, and these are forms that have been open to all and sundry for their input and not just a chosen small political group of ne'er do wells

Kernewek Hengovek bys vyken!

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:37 AM Jon Mills <j.mills at email.com <mailto:j.mills at email.com> > wrote:

Learner's tend to take on board what their teacher tells them regarding different forms of Cornish. If their teacher says 'this is the best form of Cornish that I am teaching you,' then the learner usually accepts that without question. This approach, however, is doing the learner a disservice; the learner needs to be able to communicate with the Cornish language community as a whole. Variation is not something that we should be scared of. Present Day Cornish is characterised by variation. A standard written form (note no capital letters) of Cornish should serve the entire Cornish language community by embodying that variation.

Jon

Sent: Friday, January 17, 2020 at 9:19 AM
From: "Daniel Prohaska" <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com <mailto:daniel at ryan-prohaska.com> >
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net> >
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Grammar

This is apparently the “new” (= old = pre-SWF) strategy that is being promoted. I’ve been told up front. “Learners don’t want variation”. If you want your variety presented run along and do your own thing.  

I’m afraid that’s what we’ll have to do then… each little group runs off and produces its own dictionaries, grammars, course books, each inventing new words, pretending the other groups don’t exist. The others are “wished” out of existence. 

Dan 

On 16.01.2020, at 16:59, Herbie Blackburn <kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com <mailto:kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com> > wrote:

So sad! Back when I started an interest in Cornish, the only source of anything like a modern coherent language was R Morton Nance, building on Jenner, and it was unthinkable that any Cornish Language revival would not just build on that start! My interest is the comparative study of all Celtic Languages, modern and historical, and it is so frustrating not to have a single definitive source of modern Cornish that is also true to its historical evolution.

Herbie

eMail:  <mailto:kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com> kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com

P Please consider the environment before printing this eMail –  try re-cycling your clutter 

From: Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of jeneferlowe at gmail.com <mailto:jeneferlowe at gmail.com> 
Sent: 16 January 2020 14:30
To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' <spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net> >
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Grammar

Which is precisely why I refused to endorse it when the first edition came out and I was still in the office. That said, the same criticism can be applied to various other efforts from those of all persuasions. Unfortunately the Cornish language movement seems hell-bent on continuing the in-fighting and maintaining divisions. And we are not alone. Anyone see the facebook post on the person who wants to replace double letters in Welsh with new graphs on signposts?!!

Jenefer

From: Spellyans < <mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net> spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net> On Behalf Of Raymond Chubb
Sent: 15 January 2020 19:50
To: Standard Cornish discussion list < <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net> spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Grammar

You will also notice that there is no mention of the ‘Alternative Traditional Graphs' or the ‘Late Variant’. Clearly the dictionary is aimed only at those who are coming to the SWF from a KK background.

On 15Gen2020, at 18:24, Craig Weatherhill < <mailto:craig at agantavas.org> craig at agantavas.org> wrote:

I note that p.65 of the current SWF Learner’s Dictionary (2nd edition) states that the only comprehensive grammar that is available is W. Brown’s book.  This, despite the fact that Nicholas’s excellent and far more comprehensive grammar ‘Desky Kernowek’ has been available for a few years now (and certainly well before the publication of this dictionary).  This is not, in my view, a mistake.  It’s a deliberate omission which I find disgusting.

What is the matter with these people?

Craig
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