<table cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' border='0' ><tr><td valign='top' style='font: inherit;'><BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 10/7/08, nicholas williams <I><njawilliams@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Nicholas Williams wrote:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">>The argument that a phoneme is midway between Y and Z and is therefore written X is not one that carries much weight. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Indeed.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If there is no obvious graph available, then it is likely to be written sometimes Y and sometimes Z.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">>If there is a phoneme X then the scribes will tend to spell it by the closest graph available. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If it lies between Y and Z, but closer to Y, one might expect more Ys than Zs.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If it lies closer to Z then Z would be commoner than Y.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">>They may write two different sounds in the same way, e.g. <u> for /oe/ and /y/ in Middle Cornish. But the idea that <e> and <i> mean something in between both is naive.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">On the contrary, it is commonsense.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">>Ken George noticed the hesitation between s and g and suggested the absurd /tj/ and /dj/. The most likely explanation is that both /dZ/ and /z/ occurred and this seems to be the case in Late Cornish and in toponyms.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">But is this the most likely explanation?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Chaudhri points out that <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">ose</I> is followed within thirty line in OM. by <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">oge, </I>and in BM. we find <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">dewgys</I> and <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">dewsys</I> within six lines.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It is not absurd to suggest that we are dealing here with a single sound which is not [z] but not far from [z], and which is not [dZ] but is not far from [dZ].<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>[Z] would fit the bill.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If there had been a sound *[dj] the scribes would have devised a combination of letters to write it.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">> But you just said that "the scribes will tend to spell it by the closest graph available."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You cannot have it both ways.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>:-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">>Res 'necessity' is indeed written rys and ris. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Also <reys><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">>Just as 'given' is reys, rys, ris and res. <res> is much commoner for 'necessity' than for 'given'.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You would be well advised to check the veracity of this statement.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">>There are several problems here. One is that the scribes learnt to write rys for 'given', <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Pure speculation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">>but may have said res.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Pure speculation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 14.4pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">>My own view is that some words had variant pronunciations, e.g. bys 'world' was either bi:z or be:z. I do not believe that Middle Cornish had i: I: and e:. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You made that clear in your book <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Towards Authentic Cornish</I>.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yet the spellings in the texts are compatible with just such a threefold distinction.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Tom Trethewey<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></td></tr></table><br>
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