<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div>Craig, I've had further thoughts on this. <br><br>Both Jynnji-ryn and Yeynji-ryn are unlikely as both engine houses and ice-houses hadn't been around very long before Cornish died out as a community language.<br><br>Newcomen's patent was 1698, I think, first 20 beam engines in Cornwall 1720 or so. First ice house in Britain 1625 (Home Park, Hampton Court) probably not in Cornwall for some time after that - earliest one I've found is Pencarrow House, 1760, although there may have been earlier ones. First ice shipments to Britain from Norway 1820 etc.<br><br>So - on a completely different tack, it occurred to me that the first element may be LC 'Jarn', perhaps added to an existing house name 'Chi Ryn' thus Jarn + chi + ryn, mangled a bit into Jangye-ryn. The 'r' in 'jarn' could
quite easily be lost in copying, etc. especially if the scribe, cartographer or whatever had no Cornish - which is highly likely. And the word 'jarn' was in use earlier than either engine houses or ice houses, and gardens much more common than either!<br><br>However, as you say, what we need are more historical spellings to be sure of the meaning.<br><br>Penny<br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 10pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Craig Weatherhill <weatherhill@freenet.co.uk><br>To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans@kernowek.net><br>Sent: Friday, 1 August, 2008 7:56:44 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Spellyans] jangye-ryn<br><br>Sorry, O jet-lagged one - have been busy with proof-reading (new book) <br>plus being seen (and photographed by the local paper) in suit, tie and <br>grey bowler hat on a
horse-drawn vehicle at St Buryan Rally.<br><br>I still stick to "ice-house" or "cold store", unless any further <br>evidence turns up. And I know of quite a few of these - there's one, <br>for example, within sight of my house on the rhododendron-covered slopes <br>of Trengwainton Carn. Takes a bit of finding. Winnianton was a very <br>important manorial site, by the way, all the way from Domesday. I know <br>it's a modest farm now - all trace of the manor house has long gone, <br>same as at Kelynack. The name is Cornish gwynan, "white/fair place", <br>with Old English tun, "farm, settlement" added, and the nearby headland <br>is Pedngwinian to this day. I would, though, like to see more historic <br>references and spellings for Jangye-ryn.<br><br>I don't think that "engine house" comes into it, though. Firstly, the <br>word jynjy is (I think) one of Nance's inventions and, secondly, there <br>is no record of
any mine in the area.<br><br>That initial Y occasionally becomes J in Late Cornish can be seen in <br>names like Venton Jean (fenten yeyn) and Chapel Jane (chapel yeyn - <br>although here yeyn is actually a corruption of ynyal, "desolate", the <br>old name for Gurnard's Head. An early reference to the chapel remains <br>was Inyall Chapell), as well as an Park an Jet (park an yet).<br><br>Thanks for the kind words about little Larns. She is still with us but <br>the advice from the vet is to let her enjoy summer and autumn but she <br>will not be able to withstand a cold winter. I may have to make a <br>pretty awful decision at that point. She is now so thin she looks like <br>she's walked out of Belsen (can no longer turn food into fat, and she <br>not only has two big meals a day - more than I have - but demolishes <br>them with obvious relish.). However, she is full of herself, despite <br>near-blindness and is otherwise
extremely well and very happy (and can <br>still trot and canter around freely, too). It's the fact that she is so <br>fit and obviously content with life that makes it all so difficult. <br>However, she is 37 years of age, which is one hell of an age, and she's <br>been with me for the last 21 of those, becoming the family I don't <br>have. Losing the old dear will leave a huge hole. Of course, there's <br>Paddy, the beer-swilling Irishman, and the giant Shogun (all 18 hands of <br>him), but neither of them actually belong to me.<br><br>Craig<br><br><br><br>Penny Squire wrote:<br>> Craig,<br>> <br>> I may still be a little jet-lagged (or possibly sampan-lagged!) but I <br>> can't find any response from you to my comments on jangye-ryn (see <br>> below, to save you digging through the archives) and I am curious as <br>> to your view on my suggestion.<br>> <br>> As a compensation for letting
myself in for an unexpected trip East on <br>> top of the expected ten days elsewhere I'm now taking four weeks off, <br>> so can catch up on Cornish stuff - you guys have been busy!<br>> <br>> Really sorry to hear about Larnie, Craig. I had to face losing a horse <br>> in my teens and it still twists me inside.<br>> <br>> Penny <br>> <br>> Craig,<br>><br>> Jangye-ryn cannot be 'ice-house'!<br>><br>> What would an ice-house be doing near Winnianton, a modest farm on the<br>> cliffs north of Mullion? As far as I know, only manor houses and such<br>> could afford to have ice-houses built, plus all the time, trouble and<br>> expense of hauling ice in winter, mixing with salt, etc. Pencarrow had<br>> one, built in the early 1800s, I don't know of any other in Cornwall,<br>> but there may have been some. I doubt if ice houses were known in<br>> Cornwall much before
then, and this place name is surely older.<br>><br>> Jangye-ryn almost certainly is jynnji-rynn or<br>> jynnji-run (engine house [on a] promontory, or engine house [on a]<br>> slope) - with both the 'j' and the 'g' of 'jangye' pronounced as in<br>> 'jail'. It has an 'a' where one would expect a 'y' or an 'i'<br>> admittedly, but that's Cornish place names for you!<br>><br>> And, of course, the word order is Cornish.<br>><br>> I do hope that this example of historical sloppy spelling by some unknown<br>> scribe/cartographer does not encourage any more theories about vocalic <br>> alternation<br>> or dialects.<br>><br>> Penny<br>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] More on bys/bes words and diacritical marks<br>><br>> No, yeth should not be pronounced that way (and the only attested form<br>> of that word is, in fact <eyth> in Tregear). The soft j or zh sound for<br>> initial Y is confined to
very few words, of which yeyn and yet are the<br>> most commonly found... I think this also turns up in the coastal name<br>> Jangye-ryn (Gunwalloe) which (apart from having suffered reversal to an<br>> English word order) appears to contain the compound yeyn-jy (ice-house,<br>> cold store).<br>><br>> Craig<br>><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> Not happy with your email address?<br>> Get the one you really want <<a href="http://uk..docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html" target="_blank">http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html</a>> <br>> - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! <br>> <<a href="http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html" target="_blank">http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html</a>><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>>
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