<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">A.S.D. Smith attempts to extend the use of the long form of bos in Cornish Simplied part 2. For example on page 7 he highlights 'pan semlant us ganso?' instead of the expected 'fatel yw y semlant?'<div><br></div><div>How many modern day speakers have read CS part 2 ? Although stocks are plentiful we rarely sell one. I don't think we can blame everything on the early revivalists. Standards have been falling for the last 40 years. For example even though the views of Nicholas and Ray Edwards have coincided on many points of grammar most people of all orthographic persuasions, including some teachers of Cornish, are unwilling to make any changes. Not even simple ones like 'dheworth' instead of 'deworth' and 'yn gwyr' instead of 'yn whyr'. Do these people want to speak Cornish or Pidgin Cornish?</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 28 Kev 2008, at 10:07, nicholas williams wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Eus cân genowgh is like Eus keus/Es kês? 'Is there cheese?'</span></font><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">The indefinite locative form used with an indefinite subject means 'is there?'</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">And when + gans is added it means 'have'.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Thus Eus cân genowgh 'Have you a song (for us)?'</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">This was already part of standard UC and is mentioned in Cornish Simplified.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">I rather had in mind the view that UC taught to use yw with adjectives.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">I learnt, for example, nyns yw ef trygys omma in UC and nyns ywa pell adhyworth an le-ma.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">I should now write nyns usy va tregys obma and nyns usy pell dhyworth an tyller-ma.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">UC never seemed to me to be certain about the difference between us and usy.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Usy/ugy is very common in Tregear in relative clauses when the antecedent is definite:</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Baskerville" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">han discans vgy an egglos ow dysky TH 19</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">gwregh da thyn rena vgy worth agys casa, pesough rag an rena esy worth agys vexia hagys persecutia, may hallow why bos</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">flehes agys tas vsy in neff TH 22 [three definite antecedents in one sentence].</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">In fact it is common in Tregear only because Tregear is so long and his sentences contain so</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">many relative clause. The same construction occurs elsewhere:</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Kensa, vrt an hagar auall <b>igge</b> va gweell do derevoll warneny Keniffer termen dr’erany moas</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">durt Pedden an Wolas do Sillan, &c.</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Nessa, vrt an skauoll Crackan codna <b>igge</b> va setha war en crees an aules ewhall heb drog</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">veeth.</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Tregya, vrt an Gurroll <b>igge</b> va gweell gen askern skooth davas, &c. NBoson, Duchess of Cornwall's Progress.</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">In all the examples with ugy/igge above the form of bos is used with the participle form of the verb (ow + vb)</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">to make a present tense. This was never mentioned in UC, although it is common enough in the texts:</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">in crist ihesu caradov yth eseff prest ov cresy BM 833-34</span></font></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Nyns esos ov attendya an laha del vya reys BM 848-49.</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Wella Brown is his dreadful grammar says that such periphrastic presents "can only be translated by the English continuous present" (page 147 of the KK version). </span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">So these examples from BM must be translated "In Christ Jesus I am always believing" and "You are not considering how it would be necessary for the law", respectively.</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Such a translation is clearly absurd in the examples from Boson:</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">"First because of the storms which he is [at this moment] making to rise up against us every time we go from Land's End to Scilly, etc."</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">In fact yma + ow + verbal noun is the unmarked way of making the present in Cornish. If Brown had known that, he wouldn't wrongly have written *mar trig Spyrys Dyw ynnowgh yn *hwir in his translation of Romans 8:3, but correctly mar pydh Spyrys Dyw trigys ynnowgh yn gwir; cf. <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">e ma ef ow trega innaff ve SA 61.</span></font><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "> </span></span></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">And Nowodhow an Seythen would not have said: <em style="text-decoration: inherit; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-style: normal;">Ni a vir</span></em> war-rag dhe'n fit rygbi yn Twickenham rather than Yth eson ni ow mires yn rag dhe'n fit rygbi yn Twickenham.</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div></span></font></div></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">What is really required is a new Handbook/Grammar of Cornish with an exhaustive discussion</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">of the syntax with examples from the texts and a complete index.</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Baskerville; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Nicholas</span></font></div></div></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 28 Dec 2008, at 09:25, Ray Chubb wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; ">I have always realised that one could use the long form, for example, with objects that have no substance. e.g. "Ues can genough?" / Have you got a song?</span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Spellyans mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Spellyans@kernowek.net">Spellyans@kernowek.net</a><br>http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net<br></blockquote></div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div>Ray Chubb</div><div><br></div><div>Portreth</div><div>Kernow</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span> </div><br></div></body></html>