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<body lang=DE link=blue vlink=purple style='tab-interval:35.4pt;word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>

<div class=Section1>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>

<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;
color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Gentium;mso-bidi-font-family:
Tahoma;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'> spellyans-bounces@kernowek.net
[mailto:spellyans-bounces@kernowek.net] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b><span class=GramE>nicholas</span> williams<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, September 08, 2011
10:32 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Standard
 Cornish discussion list</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [<span class=SpellE>Spellyans</span>]
<span class=SpellE>gawas</span> 'to get'</span></font><font color=navy
face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:
EN-GB'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span class=GramE><font size=3 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;
mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>“</span></font><span lang=EN-GB
style='mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>And is very unlikely.<font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'>”</span></font></span></span><span lang=EN-GB
style='mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'> <font color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>If
we look at the evidence it is as likely as it is unlikely. We don’t know.
There is evidence that points towards Cornish having retained the distinction
and some that indicates it may not have. It is impossible to decide because MC
does not distinguish between /ð/ and /θ/ in any environment. Our only
source for that is <span class=SpellE>Lhuyd</span>, who can be dismissed as a
non-native speaker and influenced by Welsh on the one hand, but who could just
as well have actually heard and recorded the distinction. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>You
argue in favour of the SWF spelling <<span class=SpellE><i style='mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'><span style='font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>gordhuwher</span></i></span>>
(or similar, with <<span class=GramE><b style='mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i
style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span style='font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal;font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>dh</span></i></b></span>>
at least) because of <span class=SpellE>Lhuyd’s</span> <<span
class=SpellE><i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span style='font-style:
italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>gẏdhihu</span></i><i style='mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'><span style='mso-bidi-font-family:Gentium;font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'>̣ar</span></i></span></span></font><font color=navy face=Gentium><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Gentium;mso-bidi-font-family:Gentium;color:navy;
mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>, <span class=SpellE><i style='mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'><span style='font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>gẏdhiụhar</span></i></span>,
<span class=SpellE><i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span
style='font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>gẏdhihuar</span></i></span></span></font><font
color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Gentium;color:navy;
mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>>, also PA <<span class=SpellE><i
style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span style='font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'>gorȝewar</span></i></span>> (next to other native spellings
with <<span class=SpellE><i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span
style='font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>th</span></i></span>>),
yet this could also be influenced by <span class=SpellE>Lhuyd’s</span>
native Welsh. Maybe <span class=SpellE>Lhuyd</span> took this for a cognate of W
<<span class=SpellE><i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span
style='font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>goddiwedydh</span></i></span>>
rather than W <<span class=SpellE><i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span
style='font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>gwrthucher</span></i></span>>.
I agree this is not the same environment, but you may be inconsistent in
dismissing (or not) <span class=SpellE>Lhuyd’s</span> evidence. <span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>“</span></font><span
lang=EN-GB style='mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>Cornish <span class=GramE>is</span>
so unlike Breton in other ways that it is difficult that it would resemble
Breton here (particularly since Modern Breton has neither dh nor <span
class=SpellE>th</span>).<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>”<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>Cornish
<span class=GramE>is</span> also very similar in many ways. Breton did once
have /ð/ and /θ/ and their reflexes are partially treated differently
in the Breton dialects today. So it is not quite right to say that Breton has
neither /ð/ nor /θ/. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>“</span></font><span
lang=EN-GB style='mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>The shift of tad > <span
class=SpellE><span class=GramE>tas</span></span> and <span class=SpellE>bochodoc</span>
> <span class=SpellE>bohosak</span> are enough to show that Cornish was very
different phonetically from both Welsh and Breton.<font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'>”<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>Yes,
this is a major distinctive feature of Cornish. I have no dispute with that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>“</span></font><span
lang=EN-GB style='mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>Cornish pre-occlusion, wholly absent
from Breton, is another pointer to huge differences.<font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'>”<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span
 lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:
 EN-GB'>PO</span></font></st1:place><font color=navy face=Gentium><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>, as
we have discussed, is a secondary feature, one that can crop up in any language
family under right circumstances. This is hardly telling in the discussion
about voicing or <span class=SpellE>unvoicing</span> of word-final consonants
in unstressed syllables. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>“</span></font><span
lang=EN-GB style='mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>The simplest way of understanding <span
class=GramE>dh</span> ~ <span class=SpellE>th</span> is to say that it
resembles g ~ k, i.e. g after stressed vowels and k after unstressed ones.<font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'>”<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>Maybe
not, the comparison may be misleading. /g/ and /k/ are stops and except in
initial position Late British lost the distinction in other environments. The opposition
was only reintroduced along with later loan words from English and OF. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>I
suspect the fricatives, which kept their <span class=GramE>voiced :</span>
voiceless opposition in Late British may have developed differently. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>I
don’t think we can go so far and assume a complete ‘<span
class=SpellE>Auslautverhärtung</span>’ (‘hardening’ (i.e.
<span class=SpellE>unvoicing</span>) of all consonants in final position) in
Cornish. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>“</span></font><span
lang=EN-GB style='mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>This would be because the stressed
vowel with its greater "<span class=SpellE>vowelness</span>" smeared
voicing onto the lenis.<font color=navy><span style='color:navy'>”<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>The unstressed vowel being
less intense did not.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>A
valid theory – just as valid as the opposite… after all we have LC
/z/ in final unstressed position.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>“</span></font><span
lang=EN-GB style='mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>The SWF accepts this alternation in
that it writes <span class=SpellE>bydh</span> but <span class=SpellE>nowyth</span>.
<span class=GramE>Although <span class=SpellE>nowyth</span> is the only word
where this phenomenon is allowed in the SWF.</span><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>Nicholas<font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'>”</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><<span
class=SpellE>Nowyth</span>> is a compromise that arose out of discussion in
the AHG. It was a mistake to accept it. There is no systematic basis for
spelling <<span class=SpellE><b style='mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i
style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span style='font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal;font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>nowyth</span></i></b></span>>
with <<span class=SpellE><span class=GramE><b style='mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal'><i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span style='font-weight:bold;
mso-bidi-font-weight:normal;font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>th</span></i></b></span></span>>
and <<span class=SpellE><b style='mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i
style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><span style='font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal;font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>menydh</span></i></b></span>>
with <<b style='mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i style='mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'><span style='font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:normal;font-style:
italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>dh</span></i></b>>, as Craig has said
earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>Dan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>On 2011 <span class=SpellE>Gwn</span>
8, at 07:10, Daniel Prohaska wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><br style='mso-special-character:
line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=1 color=navy
face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Gentium;
color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><span style='orphans: 2;text-align:-webkit-auto;
widows: 2;-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;word-spacing:0px'>Perhaps Cornish originally had
a similar system to Modern Breton, where voiced consonants</span></font></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=1 color=navy face=Gentium><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:
EN-GB'> </span></font></span><span class=SpellE><span class=spelle><font
size=1 color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>unvoice</span></font></span></span><span
class=apple-converted-space><font size=1 color=navy face=Gentium><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:
EN-GB'> </span></font></span><span class=apple-style-span><font size=1
color=navy face=Gentium><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:
Gentium;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'>in absolute final position and in
unvoiced environments, while they remain voiced before a following word
beginning with a vowel and in voiced environments. This amount of phonological
detail is difficult to retrieve so it will always remain a theory.</span></span></font></span><span
lang=EN-GB style='mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

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