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    Jon,<br>
    <br>
    I was referring to the two SWF proposed pronunciations of the
    historically written ponya.<br>
    We cannot now know for sure how the 'o' was historically pronounced.<br>
    All I was saying was that if the SWF proposed pronunciations are the
    same as the unknown historical pronunciations, then the sound of 'o'
    in 'donkey' (i.e. [<font face="Linux Libertine G">ɔ</font>
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    <br>
    Therefore, the comments about the 'o' in 'donkey' and 'monkey'
    (although very interesting) may not be relevant to the
    interpretation of ponya.<br>
    <br>
    The SWF proposed pronunciation is more akin to the 'u' in German
    'Dunkel'.<br>
    <br>
    I would like to use the spelling pœnya but this is not authentic.<br>
    <br>
    You could go for pönya instead.<br>
    <br>
    I think that this vowel is different enough from a regular 'o' to
    need being marked in some way.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    <br>
    Andrew J. Trim <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/12/15 15:37, Jon Mills wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:trinity-3fe0a50a-866c-46f3-9a8d-52a000478583-1450193868179@3capp-mailcom-lxa12"
      type="cite">
      <div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
        <div>
          <div>Andrew,</div>
          <div>I was wondering what you mean by "correct".</div>
          <div>Ol an gwella,</div>
          <div>Jon</div>
          <div> 
            <div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding:
              10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5;
              word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
              -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
              <div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday,
                December 15, 2015 at 2:36 PM<br>
                <b>From:</b> "A. J. Trim" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ajtrim@msn.com"><ajtrim@msn.com></a><br>
                <b>To:</b> "Standard Cornish discussion list"
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:spellyans@kernowek.net"><spellyans@kernowek.net></a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Spellyans] Ian Jackson:
                introduction</div>
              <div name="quoted-content">
                <div style="background-color: rgb(255,255,255);">The
                  MAGA on-line dictionary gives:<br>
                   
                  <div class="node node-cornish-word view-mode-full
                    clearfix" id="node-50292">
                    <h2 class="node-title"><span class="field-content"><a
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="http://www.cornishdictionary.org.uk/cornish/ponya"
                          target="_blank">ponya</a></span></h2>
                    <span class="field-content">ponya </span>
                    <div class="content">
                      <div class="field field-name-field-word
                        field-type-text field-label-hidden word">
                        <div class="field-items">
                          <div class="field-item odd first last"> </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div class="field field-name-field-part
                        field-type-text field-label-hidden leftfield">
                        <div class="field-items">
                          <div class="field-item odd first last">
                            <p><span class="field-content">vb run / trot</span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div class="field field-name-field-english2
                        field-type-text field-label-hidden leftfield">
                        <div class="field-items">
                          <div class="field-item odd first last"> </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <fieldset class="field-group-fieldset
                        group-pronunciation version form-wrapper"
                        id="node_cornish_word_full_group_pronunciation">
                        <div class="fieldset-wrapper">
                          <div class="field
                            field-name-field-pronunciation-m
                            field-type-text field-label-inline clearfix
                            clearfield"><span class="field-content"><span
                                class="field-label">M: </span> </span>
                            <div class="field-items">
                              <div class="field-item odd first last">
                                <p><span class="field-content">'pɤnja</span></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <span class="field-content"> </span></div>
                          <div class="field
                            field-name-field-pronunciation-l
                            field-type-text field-label-inline clearfix
                            clearfield"><span class="field-content"><span
                                class="field-label">L: </span> </span>
                            <div class="field-items">
                              <div class="field-item odd first last">
                                <p><span class="field-content">'pʊnjɐ</span></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <span class="field-content"> </span></div>
                        </div>
                      </fieldset>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <span class="field-content">If this is correct,
                      there is no 'o' as in standard English 'donkey',
                      here.<br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      Regards,<br>
                      <br>
                      Andrew J. Trim</span><br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    <br>
                     </div>
                  <span class="field-content"> </span>
                  <div class="region region-sidebar-first column
                    sidebar">
                    <div class="section">
                      <div class="block block-views first odd"
                        id="block-views-exp-browse-page">
                        <div class="content">
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                            <div class="views-exposed-form"> </div>
                          </div>
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                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                   
                  <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/12/15 12:32, Craig
                    Weatherhill wrote:</div>
                  <blockquote>But don't forget that Lhuyd was writing
                    phonetically.  It is common in Cornish speech to
                    render short O as short U, e.g. "dunkey" (donkey).
                     This might well have been found more widely - how
                    does one explain the Eng. pronunciation of "monkey",
                    which at face value, ought to be pronounced as Eng.
                    "donkey".
                    <div> </div>
                    <div>Craig</div>
                    <div> 
                      <div>
                        <div>On 2015 Kev 15, at 11:38, Nicholas Williams
                          wrote:</div>
                         
                        <blockquote>
                          <div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;">The last
                              instance of <i>ponya</i> before the
                              seventeenth century seems to be Tregear ca
                              1555 who writes <i>lyas onyn a rug resak
                                ha ponya in stray</i> TH 30a. Lhuyd in <i>Archæologia
                                Britannica</i> (1707), however, writes
                              the verbal noun of the verb ‘to run’ as <i>punnia</i>
                              AB: 53b, <i>punnya</i> AB: 61c. In later
                              Cornish therefore one might more
                              accurately spell the stressed vowel as
                              <u> rather than <o>.</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;min-height:
                              16.0px;"> </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;">Janice says:</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;min-height:
                              16.0px;"> </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;">Yth esof vy
                              ow ponya — shift forward a few hundred
                              years and you get Thero vy ow ponya.</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;min-height:
                              16.0px;"> </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;">I am not
                              sure I can agree with her.</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;">Setting
                              aside the verbal noun for a moment, let us
                              look the rest of the phrase.</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;min-height:
                              16.0px;"> </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;">In Sacrament
                              an Alter (ca ?1570) we read:</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;"><i>rag ne
                                geran cregy nanyle regardia gerryow Dew</i>
                              ‘for we do not believe nor regard the
                              words of God’. Notice both that the -s- of
                              <i>eson</i> has been rhotacised and that
                              the particle <i>ow</i>, <i>o</i> has
                              been suppressed/omitted before both <i>cregy</i>
                              ‘believe’ and <i>regardia</i> ‘regard’.</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;min-height:
                              16.0px;"> </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;">Look then at
                              the following quotations from the <i>Creation
                                of the World</i> (1611):</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;min-height:
                              16.0px;"> </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;text-align:
                              justify;font-size: 13.0px;line-height:
                              normal;font-family: Verdana;"><i>mere yth
                                esaf ow towtya</i> CW 1540</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;font-size:
                              13.0px;line-height: normal;font-family:
                              Verdana;"><i>yeth esaf ow tremena</i> CW
                              1696</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;font-size:
                              13.0px;line-height: normal;font-family:
                              Verdana;"><i>yth esaf ow pose gorthys</i> CW
                              2125.</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;font-size:
                              13.0px;line-height: normal;font-family:
                              Verdana;min-height: 16.0px;"> </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;font-size:
                              13.0px;line-height: normal;font-family:
                              Verdana;">It seems, therefore, that <i>neg
                                eran cregy</i> from <i>ca</i> 1570
                              predates <i>yth esaf ow towtya</i> from
                              1611. Jan’s remark ‘a few hundred years’
                              is difficult to sustain.</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;font-size:
                              13.0px;line-height: normal;font-family:
                              Verdana;min-height: 16.0px;"> </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;font-size:
                              13.0px;line-height: normal;font-family:
                              Verdana;">This is, I believe, an important
                              point. Many of the alleged differences
                              between Middle and Late Cornish are
                              apparent rather than real and it is unwise
                              to emphasise the distance between the two
                              forms of the language. </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;font-size:
                              13.0px;line-height: normal;font-family:
                              Verdana;min-height: 16.0px;"> </div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;font-size:
                              13.0px;line-height: normal;font-family:
                              Verdana;min-height: 16.0px;">Nicholas</div>
                            <div style="margin: 0.0px;font-size:
                              13.0px;line-height: normal;font-family:
                              Verdana;min-height: 16.0px;"> </div>
                            <div>
                              <blockquote>
                                <div>On 13 Dec 2015, at 17:50, Nicholas
                                  Williams <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="njawilliams@gmail.com"
                                    target="_parent">njawilliams@gmail.com</a>>
                                  wrote:</div>
                                 
                                <div><span style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica;font-size:
                                    12.0px;font-style:
                                    normal;font-variant:
                                    normal;font-weight:
                                    normal;letter-spacing:
                                    normal;text-indent:
                                    0.0px;text-transform:
                                    none;white-space:
                                    normal;word-spacing: 0.0px;float:
                                    none;display: inline;">Me a bon
                                    means 'I shall run'. 'I run' is best
                                    translated Yth esof ow ponya.</span>
                                  <div style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica;font-size:
                                    12.0px;font-style:
                                    normal;font-variant:
                                    normal;font-weight:
                                    normal;letter-spacing:
                                    normal;text-indent:
                                    0.0px;text-transform:
                                    none;white-space:
                                    normal;word-spacing: 0.0px;"> </div>
                                  <div style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica;font-size:
                                    12.0px;font-style:
                                    normal;font-variant:
                                    normal;font-weight:
                                    normal;letter-spacing:
                                    normal;text-indent:
                                    0.0px;text-transform:
                                    none;white-space:
                                    normal;word-spacing: 0.0px;">And
                                    indeed 'I shall run' is more
                                    idiomatically rendered me a vydn
                                    ponya or</div>
                                  <div style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica;font-size:
                                    12.0px;font-style:
                                    normal;font-variant:
                                    normal;font-weight:
                                    normal;letter-spacing:
                                    normal;text-indent:
                                    0.0px;text-transform:
                                    none;white-space:
                                    normal;word-spacing: 0.0px;">me a
                                    wra ponya. </div>
                                  <div style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica;font-size:
                                    12.0px;font-style:
                                    normal;font-variant:
                                    normal;font-weight:
                                    normal;letter-spacing:
                                    normal;text-indent:
                                    0.0px;text-transform:
                                    none;white-space:
                                    normal;word-spacing: 0.0px;"> </div>
                                  <div style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica;font-size:
                                    12.0px;font-style:
                                    normal;font-variant:
                                    normal;font-weight:
                                    normal;letter-spacing:
                                    normal;text-indent:
                                    0.0px;text-transform:
                                    none;white-space:
                                    normal;word-spacing: 0.0px;">Nicholas</div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                          </div>
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                  <br>
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