[Spellyans] Introducing myself and 'historical standardCornish' HSC

ajtrim at msn.com ajtrim at msn.com
Sun Nov 23 12:36:07 GMT 2008

The official form of the SWF uses <hw> for traditional <wh>. Although you 
can use <wh> in the SWF, the form that we shall see on public notices & 
documents and in education will be <hw>. The same will go for the other 
traditional graphs. In practice, the SWF will be publically visible mainly 
without traditional graphs. So, although Nicholas's point was a good one, 
Ray's concern is unlikely to have been removed.


Andrew J. Trim

From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:27 AM
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Introducing myself and 'historical standardCornish' 

> Please tell me you're joking, Ray?  Who on earth has gone and replaced  a 
> schwa with a long vowel?  Was it one of the much self-proclaimed 
> "fluent/effective speakers"?  I shall refrain from making the obvious 
> punning comment.
> I think I might dispute that Lhuyd's <hu> = the awful <hw>, on the 
> grounds that he was attempting to represent the phonetics of Cornish 
> speech rather than the orthography.  Native writers contemporary with 
> Lhuyd invariably used <wh>.  However, <wh> is also part of the SWF  and, 
> therefore, Nicholas's point remains undamaged.
> Craig
> On 23 Du 2008, at 09:23, Ray Chubb wrote:
>> Fair enough, but when I talk about 'historical standard Cornish' I  am 
>> talking about Cornish that derived from the Glasney College  scribal 
>> tradition.  I don't include Lhuyd, Rowe and Boson in this.   Within this 
>> tradition 'skant' for example only appears to occur once  while 'scant' 
>> appears on three occasions.  I really do think we need  to distinguish 
>> between rare examples and the most common examples.   The principle that 
>> was the basis of Unified Cornish.  This is  especially important if, like 
>> me, you want your Cornish to have a  Cornish appearance.  Guess I should 
>> start writing 'onyn' now not  'onen' :-)
>> By the way I heard a pronunciation of 'onan' yesterday which  confirmed 
>> my worst fears.  Speakers with a Cornish accent are  pronouncing 'onan' 
>> with a long 'a'.
>> Thanks to Michael for providing the information that enabled me to  do 
>> the counts.
>> On 22 Du 2008, at 20:33, nicholas williams wrote:
>>> If one accepts the principle of tota Cornicitas, most of the  spellings 
>>> in the SWF (without authentic graphs) are supported by  the texts. Look 
>>> at the following unfinished analysis:
>>> Yn termyn eus passyes yth esa trigys yn Synt Leven den ha benyn yn 
>>> tyller kriys Chi an Hordh.
>>> Han hwel a godhas skant; hag yn-medh an den dhe’n wreg,
>>> “My a vynn mos dhe hwilas hwel dhe wul, ha hwi a yll dendil agas 
>>> bewnans omma."
>>> Kummyas teg ev a gemereas ha pell dhe’n est ev a dravalyas,
>>> ha wor’tiwedh ev a wrug dos dhe ji tiek ha a wrug hwilas ena hwel  dhe 
>>> wul.
>>> yn termyn JKeigwin; In termyn passyes TH 49a
>>> yth esa ow meynya TH 40at
>>> a vo trigys PC 122
>>> Bannath Synt Cler ha Synt Ya BK 2897-98
>>> may teffa pub den ha benyn TH 22a
>>> kriez Stynnorian WGwavas; an Levar kreiyz Liber Landavensis Lhuyd
>>> an chi a thu TH 33
>>> kemer dys pen horth BM 3395; Hor, †hordh AB: 3c
>>> an huêl bîan hanter-gureyzma Lhuyd
>>> try kodhaz padzhar legriaz Lhuyd
>>> skant ny welaf vn banna CW 1461
>>> yn meth crist pan dra PA 46b; Amedh Dzhûan Lhuyd
>>> Then tyller PA 33a; dhon tavaz rê hîr Lhuyd; then
>>> naye y honyn, y wreg TH 7
>>> my a vyn mos OM 823; mar mynnyth PA 16d
>>> ha ’ryg huillaz Lhuyd
>>> Rag oun hui dho Kodha Lhuyd; wy a yll gull da PA 37d
>>> rag dendel dyso kefyans BM 3076
>>> agas bannethow OM 464; agys bewnans TH 28a
>>> kumyas pesa BM 2778; mar pethama kibmiez NBoson
>>> ha teg the sight y lagasow TH 3a
>>> ev a brefyas lowre gow theis CW 818; an arghans a gemeras PA 103b
>>> ny strechyaff pell PA 158c
>>> E steran en Est Rowe.
>>> I dislike the SWF (without authentic graphs) but at least it is not 
>>> Kernowek Kemmyn with all
>>> its mistaken underlying phonology.
>>> In the SWF the most inauthentic spellings are items like vynn and 
>>> kummyas with geminate consonant.
>>> In SWF traditional we can substitute vydn and cubmyas, which are 
>>> attested.
>>> Nicholas
>>> On 22 Nov 2008, at 19:48, Ray Chubb wrote:
>>>> his is something that I have a passion about and for this reason I 
>>>> will not be using the Standard Form on a personal level.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>> Ray Chubb
>> Portreth
>> Kernow
>> _______________________________________________
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> --
> Craig Weatherhill
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