[Spellyans] Introducing myself and 'historical standardCornish' HSC

Craig Weatherhill craig at agantavas.org
Sun Nov 23 12:42:20 GMT 2008

Unfortunately, true.


On 23 Du 2008, at 12:36, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> The official form of the SWF uses <hw> for traditional <wh>.  
> Although you can use <wh> in the SWF, the form that we shall see on  
> public notices & documents and in education will be <hw>. The same  
> will go for the other traditional graphs. In practice, the SWF will  
> be publically visible mainly without traditional graphs. So,  
> although Nicholas's point was a good one, Ray's concern is unlikely  
> to have been removed.
> Regards,
> Andrew J. Trim
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:27 AM
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Introducing myself and 'historical  
> standardCornish' HSC
>> Please tell me you're joking, Ray?  Who on earth has gone and  
>> replaced  a schwa with a long vowel?  Was it one of the much self- 
>> proclaimed "fluent/effective speakers"?  I shall refrain from  
>> making the obvious punning comment.
>> I think I might dispute that Lhuyd's <hu> = the awful <hw>, on the  
>> grounds that he was attempting to represent the phonetics of  
>> Cornish speech rather than the orthography.  Native writers  
>> contemporary with Lhuyd invariably used <wh>.  However, <wh> is  
>> also part of the SWF  and, therefore, Nicholas's point remains  
>> undamaged.
>> Craig
>> On 23 Du 2008, at 09:23, Ray Chubb wrote:
>>> Fair enough, but when I talk about 'historical standard Cornish'  
>>> I  am talking about Cornish that derived from the Glasney College   
>>> scribal tradition.  I don't include Lhuyd, Rowe and Boson in  
>>> this.   Within this tradition 'skant' for example only appears to  
>>> occur once  while 'scant' appears on three occasions.  I really do  
>>> think we need  to distinguish between rare examples and the most  
>>> common examples.   The principle that was the basis of Unified  
>>> Cornish.  This is  especially important if, like me, you want your  
>>> Cornish to have a  Cornish appearance.  Guess I should start  
>>> writing 'onyn' now not  'onen' :-)
>>> By the way I heard a pronunciation of 'onan' yesterday which   
>>> confirmed my worst fears.  Speakers with a Cornish accent are   
>>> pronouncing 'onan' with a long 'a'.
>>> Thanks to Michael for providing the information that enabled me  
>>> to  do the counts.
>>> On 22 Du 2008, at 20:33, nicholas williams wrote:
>>>> If one accepts the principle of tota Cornicitas, most of the   
>>>> spellings in the SWF (without authentic graphs) are supported by   
>>>> the texts. Look at the following unfinished analysis:
>>>> Yn termyn eus passyes yth esa trigys yn Synt Leven den ha benyn  
>>>> yn tyller kriys Chi an Hordh.
>>>> Han hwel a godhas skant; hag yn-medh an den dhe’n wreg,
>>>> “My a vynn mos dhe hwilas hwel dhe wul, ha hwi a yll dendil agas  
>>>> bewnans omma."
>>>> Kummyas teg ev a gemereas ha pell dhe’n est ev a dravalyas,
>>>> ha wor’tiwedh ev a wrug dos dhe ji tiek ha a wrug hwilas ena  
>>>> hwel  dhe wul.
>>>> yn termyn JKeigwin; In termyn passyes TH 49a
>>>> yth esa ow meynya TH 40at
>>>> a vo trigys PC 122
>>>> Bannath Synt Cler ha Synt Ya BK 2897-98
>>>> may teffa pub den ha benyn TH 22a
>>>> kriez Stynnorian WGwavas; an Levar kreiyz Liber Landavensis Lhuyd
>>>> an chi a thu TH 33
>>>> kemer dys pen horth BM 3395; Hor, †hordh AB: 3c
>>>> an huêl bîan hanter-gureyzma Lhuyd
>>>> try kodhaz padzhar legriaz Lhuyd
>>>> skant ny welaf vn banna CW 1461
>>>> yn meth crist pan dra PA 46b; Amedh Dzhûan Lhuyd
>>>> Then tyller PA 33a; dhon tavaz rê hîr Lhuyd; then
>>>> naye y honyn, y wreg TH 7
>>>> my a vyn mos OM 823; mar mynnyth PA 16d
>>>> ha ’ryg huillaz Lhuyd
>>>> Rag oun hui dho Kodha Lhuyd; wy a yll gull da PA 37d
>>>> rag dendel dyso kefyans BM 3076
>>>> agas bannethow OM 464; agys bewnans TH 28a
>>>> kumyas pesa BM 2778; mar pethama kibmiez NBoson
>>>> ha teg the sight y lagasow TH 3a
>>>> ev a brefyas lowre gow theis CW 818; an arghans a gemeras PA 103b
>>>> ny strechyaff pell PA 158c
>>>> E steran en Est Rowe.
>>>> I dislike the SWF (without authentic graphs) but at least it is  
>>>> not Kernowek Kemmyn with all
>>>> its mistaken underlying phonology.
>>>> In the SWF the most inauthentic spellings are items like vynn and  
>>>> kummyas with geminate consonant.
>>>> In SWF traditional we can substitute vydn and cubmyas, which are  
>>>> attested.
>>>> Nicholas
>>>> On 22 Nov 2008, at 19:48, Ray Chubb wrote:
>>>>> his is something that I have a passion about and for this reason  
>>>>> I will not be using the Standard Form on a personal level.
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Ray Chubb
>>> Portreth
>>> Kernow
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>> --
>> Craig Weatherhill
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Craig Weatherhill

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