[Spellyans] dictionnaire de l'Académie française

Craig Weatherhill craig at agantavas.org
Mon Jan 31 13:26:28 GMT 2011

Jed - have you considered joining Agan Tavas?  We'd be glad to have you.


On 30 Gen 2011, at 21:38, Jed Matthews wrote:

> May I wade in?
> I can't speak for all Cornish speakers, I can only speak for my own  
> experiences. The fact that this discussion is even being had would  
> suggest that there is no consensus on the issue of diacritics.
> Whenever I see 'bys' used in a context where it clearly means  
> 'until', I say [bɪz], and whenever I see 'bys' used in a context  
> where it clearly means 'world', I say [biːz]. I can't give examples  
> of other bys/bes type words because I haven't looked into it very  
> much. But I'm sure there would be other times where (for me) context  
> would suffice.
> The point has been made that some KK users pronounce bys and pryv  
> incorrectly. I do not believe this is a problem directly caused by  
> the orthography (although it is true it does not help) but by poor  
> teaching. A learner only has to be told once that until is [bɪz] and  
> world is [biːz]. It is not true that this can only work with oral  
> teaching, I have not been to a single class and have learnt Cornish  
> solely through books and yet I know the difference because the books  
> I've read taught it.
> Also, the point's been made that in languages like French and  
> Spanish spelling words without the diacritics would be spelling them  
> wrong. This is indeed correct, but I don't believe this argument is  
> relevant to Cornish. Cornish doesn't have one orthography, like  
> those languages, it has many, and so I think it would be impossible  
> to claim that spelling a word without diacritics is wrong when there  
> are so many other orthographies that don't use diacritics. It could  
> be the case that in 100 years time, the idea of spelling Cornish  
> without diacritics is as strange as spelling French without them.  
> However we are not at that point now. Today there are generations of  
> Cornish speakers who are used to spelling without diacritics and it  
> might be rather idealistic to expect them all to suddenly start  
> using them after a directive from above says they should.
> Nevertheless, in my opinion, all this discussion is (if you forgive  
> the bluntness) kind of pointless anyway. The SWF in 2013 will be a  
> political compromise, there's no denying it. We can ignore that fact  
> for as long we like but it will be a fact nonetheless. We need to be  
> focusing on how to make the SWF better in a way that could be  
> acceptable to a majority of Cornish users. If it's obvious that KS's  
> current range of diacritics will not find favour with that majority  
> then we should not be stubbornly continuing the matter. I've got the  
> impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that a very limited use of  
> diacritics, for things like anomalous vowel length, might find a  
> majority favour. As for y/e, I don't like the umlaut and don't think  
> it fits in well with the overall 'look' of Cornish. I also don't see  
> it gaining widespread favour. I have always preferred <ei> anyway  
> and would like to see this at least mentioned in 2013 to see if  
> opinion has shifted. If not, then I don't see the y/e distinction  
> going away and we shouldn't spend time trying to fix things that  
> can't be fixed in a manner acceptable to a majority.
> This discussion is part of a larger choice that needs to be made.  
> Either you can focus on proposing fixes to the SWF, which means  
> finding solutions that will be acceptable to a majority of users, or  
> you can ditch the SWF, tread your own path, and go back to KS1. If  
> the SWF is ditched, would this send us all back to the pre-SWF days?  
> Would traditional forms end up being cut off from the arena that  
> matters most - schools? Would KS end up being sidelined? Or would  
> there be a surge of support for KS1, meaning that it might stand a  
> chance at becoming a future SWF? Who knows. The options need to be  
> weighed up. The current KS it seems, in my opinion, is too far from  
> the SWF to be accepted by a majority, but not close enough to your  
> ideal of a KS1-type orthography. What shouldn't happen, not at all,  
> is that the traditionalist lobby becomes fractured.
> Jed Matthews a.k.a. Truru/Carrek
> 2011/1/30 Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
> I doubt MAGA's intentions, to be honest.  They've totally sidelined  
> trad. graphs thus far and I think they're guiding the SWF towards  
> the return of KK in 2013.  I'd like to be proven wrong on that and,  
> just maybe, Tuesday's meeting between Agan Tavas and MAGA might put  
> things back on track.  I don't hold out hopes, though.  MAGA's  
> accusation, that AT was not constructively contributing to the SWF  
> was a disgrace.  We've published much SWF material as the rest of  
> 'em put together!  If it goes badly, and we have to walk out, then I  
> will be walking further.  Right away from the language altogether.   
> I've become sick and tired of battlefields.
> Craig
> On 30 Gen 2011, at 20:23, Eddie Climo wrote:
> Truru whek,
> What you say makes a lot of sense to me.
> Like it or lump it, for all its many flaws the SWF is here, and  
> probably here to stay.
> The worst outcome of 2013 that I can see would be the Trad forms of  
> the SWF being discarded or further sidelined, and the non-Trad  
> KKised form taking over.
> The outcome might become more likely to happen if:
> — the version of KS on offer is not acceptable to enough of the  
> Cornish-speaking community.
>        That's why this thread is happening, in the hope of resolving  
> this problem.
> — no-one is teaching SWF-T
>        There are some teachers in Cornwall using it.
> — nobody is publishing in SWF-T
>        Agan Tavas and Evertype have done so. GanO are part-way  
> through publishing a series of readers in SWF-T, as well as some  
> other titles.
> Eddie Foirbeis Climo
> Gwask an Orlewen
> - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> Dres ethom akennow byner re bo lyeshes
> Accenti non multiplicandi praeter necessitatem
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> Craig Weatherhill
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Craig Weatherhill

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