[Spellyans] A 'Censored Message'? Can this be?

Janice Lobb janicelobb at gmail.com
Mon Jan 31 18:27:07 GMT 2011

I have two lengthy archived posts (saying the same thing?) - one from Truru
Truru and the other from Jed Mathews a.k.a. Truru/Carrek. I don't know the
gentleman in question, but I do prefer to deal with real names if I'm to
take people seriously. Ideally I like to have a mental picture of the

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>wrote:

> It's still on my post list.  Maybe he forgot that he posted it as Truru,
> not Carrek.
> Craig
> On 31 Gen 2011, at 17:56, Eddie Climo wrote:
>  Truru (a pseudonym) claims on C24 that our esteemed Moderator, Michael
>> (not a pseudonym), has censored  this post of his to Spellyans. Can this be
>> true? As far as I know, I received a copy of it with the rest of the
>> postings on this list.
>> Perhaps Michael would care to comment.
>> Eddie Foirbeis Climo
>> - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
>> Dres ethom akennow byner re bo lyeshes
>> Accenti non multiplicandi praeter necessitatem
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>  From: Truru Truru <ebost.truru at googlemail.com>
>>> Date: 2011 Mys Genver 30 18:42:44 GMT+00:00
>>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] dictionnaire de l'Académie française
>>> Reply-To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> May I wade in?
>>> I can't speak for all Cornish speakers, I can only speak for my own
>>> experiences. The fact that this discussion is even being had would suggest
>>> that there is no consensus on the issue of diacritics.
>>> Whenever I see 'bys' used in a context where it clearly means 'until', I
>>> say [bɪz], and whenever I see 'bys' used in a context where it clearly means
>>> 'world', I say [biːz]. I can't give examples of other bys/bes type words
>>> because I haven't looked into it very much. But I'm sure there would be
>>> other times where (for me) context would suffice.
>>> The point has been made that some KK users pronounce bys and pryv
>>> incorrectly. I do not believe this is a problem directly caused by the
>>> orthography (although it is true it does not help) but by poor teaching. A
>>> learner only has to be told once that until is [bɪz] and world is [biːz]. It
>>> is not true that this can only work with oral teaching, I have not been to a
>>> single class and have learnt Cornish solely through books and yet I know the
>>> difference because the books I've read taught it.
>>> Also, the point's been made that in languages like French and Spanish
>>> spelling words without the diacritics would be spelling them wrong. This is
>>> indeed correct, but I don't believe this argument is relevant to Cornish.
>>> Cornish doesn't have one orthography, like those languages, it has many, and
>>> so I think it would be impossible to claim that spelling a word without
>>> diacritics is wrong when there are so many other orthographies that don't
>>> use diacritics. It could be the case that in 100 years time, the idea of
>>> spelling Cornish without diacritics is as strange as spelling French without
>>> them. However we are not at that point now. Today there are generations of
>>> Cornish speakers who are used to spelling without diacritics and it might be
>>> rather idealistic to expect them all to suddenly start using them after a
>>> directive from above says they should.
>>> Nevertheless, in my opinion, all this discussion is (if you forgive the
>>> bluntness) kind of pointless anyway. The SWF in 2013 will be a political
>>> compromise, there's no denying it. We can ignore that fact for as long we
>>> like but it will be a fact nonetheless. We need to be focusing on how to
>>> make the SWF better in a way that could be acceptable to a majority of
>>> Cornish users. If it's obvious that KS's current range of diacritics will
>>> not find favour with that majority then we should not be stubbornly
>>> continuing the matter. I've got the impression (correct me if I'm wrong)
>>> that a very limited use of diacritics, for things like anomalous vowel
>>> length, might find a majority favour. As for y/e, I don't like the umlaut
>>> and don't think it fits in well with the overall 'look' of Cornish. I also
>>> don't see it gaining widespread favour. I have always preferred <ei> anyway
>>> and would like to see this at least mentioned in 2013 to see if opinion has
>>> shifted. If not, then I don't see the y/e distinction going away and we
>>> shouldn't spend time trying to fix things that can't be fixed in a manner
>>> acceptable to a majority.
>>> This discussion is part of a larger choice that needs to be made. Either
>>> you can focus on proposing fixes to the SWF, which means finding solutions
>>> that will be acceptable to a majority of users, or you can ditch the SWF,
>>> tread your own path, and go back to KS1. If the SWF is ditched, would this
>>> send us all back to the pre-SWF days? Would traditional forms end up being
>>> cut off from the arena that matters most - schools? Would KS end up being
>>> sidelined? Or would there be a surge of support for KS1, meaning that it
>>> might stand a chance at becoming a future SWF? Who knows. The options need
>>> to be weighed up. The current KS it seems, in my opinion, is too far from
>>> the SWF to be accepted by a majority, but not close enough to your ideal of
>>> a KS1-type orthography. What shouldn't happen, not at all, is that the
>>> traditionalist lobby becomes fractured.
>>> Carrek
>>> 2011/1/30 Eddie Climo <eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk>
>>> On 2011 Gen 30, at 17:14, nicholas williams wrote:
>>>> Whatever orthography one uses one's first concern should perhaps be that
>>>> the Cornish is accurate.
>>>> Certainly we always ensure as far as possible that our published Cornish
>>>> is correct.
>>>> Eddie himself is not without fault here. Let me cite some examples at
>>>> random from Whedhlow Dama Goodh FSS/T-C:
>>> Oh, dear, are we now to descend to playground jibes? Am I to emulate your
>>> behaviour and scour your published works to hunt for errors to fling in your
>>> face, Nicholas? Am I to unearth and repeat some of the incorrect assertions
>>> you made to me in private as you proofread my 'Kensa Lyver Redya'?
>>> No, I think not; such conduct is not attractive.
>>> It is gratifying that we have an emerging consensus on this thread about
>>> the role diacritics should have in KS, one that diverges from your views.
>>> Nicholas and Michael are, of course, quite free to publish works in
>>> whatever orthography they choose, and to encumber them with as many
>>> diacritics as they please. In the same way, they're at liberty to lard their
>>> Cornish with as many macaronic Tregearisms as they fancy, no matter how
>>> 'Kernglish' the result might look.
>>> However, they are NOT free to do the same with the formal specification
>>> of KS that will be submitted to the CLP in due course. That must reflect the
>>> consensus of this group, at least it must do so if it is to have my name and
>>> my support behind it.
>>> Let us hope that the final KS specification is indeed written in the
>>> light of this apparent consensus, and is not 'too much encumbered with
>>> [mandatory] diaritical signs'.
>>> Eddie Climo
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> --
> Craig Weatherhill
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