[Spellyans] SWF (t) and Maga web site

Craig Weatherhill craig at agantavas.org
Tue Aug 7 12:04:25 BST 2012

As you all know, I've been worried about the apparent sidelining of  
traditional Cornish ever since 2008.

I currently advise the Signage Panel, and concern myself mainly with  
historic place-names, mostly in an attempt to limit damage done in the  
past (and which might be carried through) through insufficient research.

Obviously, this has to be done within the confines of the SWF but one  
significant place-name was decided by the Partnership, and not the  
Panel, and what they approved was not an SWF spelling (I think we all  
know which place-name this is).  I was, and still am, angry about this  
because, not only is the Partnership entirely unqualified to comment  
or decide upon place-names, but also because members of the Panel were  
close to agreeing a compromise form in which non-trad users lose a  
letter, and trad. users gain a letter.  My list, mentioned below,  
derogates from the Partnership's unacceptable decision, and gives the  
compromise form we were so close to agreeing before the matter was  
taken out of our hands.

When the Panel was founded, its membership was well balanced between  
users of traditional and non-traditional Cornish:  now, the only voice  
for traditional Cornish connected with the Panel is me.  Nevertheless,  
the Panel members do work together quite well.

The Panel has so far decided upon about 300 historic place-names.   
Bearing in mind that we are restricted to the confines of the SWF, I  
am quite happy to agree with all bar 16 of these.  I question 12 of  
them to varying degrees;  the other 4 (including the example cited  
above) I absolutely oppose.  Overall that isn't too bad.

However, the master list is being kept only in the Main Form SWF.  So,  
to counter yet another sidelining of traditional Cornish, I am  
maintaining a parallel list which presents the agreed names in both  
main form and traditional graphs.


On 7 Est 2012, at 11:28, Ray Chubb wrote:

> Jenefer, I think you are beginning to sound like a gramophone record  
> stuck in the grove.
> We all know what the Treyarnon agreement was, the point that I have  
> been making on this forum is that the Partnership is a public body  
> representing Cornish and the whole of the Cornish language movement  
> but since the removal of the SWF (t) glossary from the web site  
> there is no indication at all of what native Cornish looks like.   
> The (t) glossary was in fact a very poor indication of traditional  
> spelling but at least it was something.
> How can the Partnership accept public money when it represents only  
> those who think that it is O.K. to tinker wholesale with native  
> forms of Cornish?
> I shall certainly be making representations at the next Partnership  
> meeting to have a page on the web site dedicated to show what  
> various orthographies look like including those of native writers.   
> If I am outvoted as I usually am by the politicians on the  
> Partnership, (including the ones who speak Cornish) I shall take the  
> matter up with Cornwall Councillors.
> On 7 Est 2012, at 10:00, Lowe Jenefer wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> I am away working at an event in Brittany at the moment and  
>> therefore only infrequently checking email.  However, I feel I must  
>> just set the record straight. My position and that of MAGA is to  
>> work to the agreements made unless and until those change in any  
>> way, via the review. I have sent out the attached document,  
>> produced by the AHG as part of the agreement and spec, many times,  
>> but it continues to be ignored. It has always also been available  
>> on the website along with the spec. It sets out clearly what was  
>> agreed on variants and on traditional graphs and it is that  
>> agreement to which we adhere. The agreement put traditional graphs  
>> in place for those who wish to use them, but was emphatic that this  
>> did not create another 'form' - it wasn't a case of use all or  
>> nothing of the traditional graphs. I think the paper makes the  
>> position at the moment absolutely clear. That is why we are not  
>> looking at a dictionary with traditional forms but explaining the  
>> alternatives available within the one dictionary. The online  
>> dictionary will enable searches for traditional graph spellings and  
>> should be available, once a couple of technical issues are resolved.
>> We are very happy to accept traditional graphs in use - in  
>> newsletter articles for example, but it was never the case that  
>> they would be used officially and we have to stick to the  
>> agreements made.
>> Michael is right - SWF is not KK, the basis is different and we do  
>> need to keep aesthetic and linguistic points apart. This is exactly  
>> why the agreement at Treyarnon separated out the linguistic  
>> variants catered for by the Middle and Late variants from the  
>> aesthetic considerations represented by the traditional graphs.  
>> Trond was very clear on this point and right to be so.  That is why  
>> he originally termed the traditional graphs 'side forms' - meaning  
>> they exist beside and along with the official forms.
>> And Michael - once again the initial information on the conference  
>> is available in the latest newsletter you have received. Full  
>> information will go out as soon as the details of venue are  
>> confirmed.
>> I may not be online again for a day or two but hope that this will  
>> help to explain why we take the stance we do in support of the  
>> agreement as made.
>> Yn lel,
>> Jenefer Lowe
>> Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya
>> Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek
>> Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow
>> Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie
>> County Hall / Lys Kernow
>> Truro
>> TR1 3AY
>> tel: / pell: 01872 323465
>> email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk
>> website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk
>> Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter!
>> @magakernow
>> Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook!  Find us on Facebook!
>> www.facebook.com/magakernow
>> The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for  
>> Communities and Local Government and Cornwall Council.
>> Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran  
>> rag Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net 
>> ] On Behalf Of Daniel Prohaska
>> Sent: 05 August 2012 16:05
>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF (t) and Maga web site
>> I can't remember. It's likely I wrote to Jenefer or Elizabeth about  
>> it.
>> Dan
>> On Aug 5, 2012, at 3:33 PM, Michael Everson wrote:
>> > On 5 Aug 2012, at 14:27, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>> >
>> >> I have offered to make a SWF/t version of the dictionary and my  
>> offer has simply been ignored…
>> >
>> > Who was it who ignored it?
>> >
>> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Spellyans mailing list
>> > Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> > http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> Ray Chubb
> Portreth
> Kernow
> Agan Tavas web site:  www.agantavas.com
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

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