[Spellyans] SWF (t) and Maga web site

Ken MacKinnon ken at ferintosh.org
Wed Aug 8 10:02:56 BST 2012



It would be very useful to publish this list.


Even more useful would be an actual map.


-        An ken Ken


From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net]
On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill
Sent: 07 August 2012 12:04
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF (t) and Maga web site


As you all know, I've been worried about the apparent sidelining of
traditional Cornish ever since 2008.


I currently advise the Signage Panel, and concern myself mainly with
historic place-names, mostly in an attempt to limit damage done in the past
(and which might be carried through) through insufficient research.


Obviously, this has to be done within the confines of the SWF but one
significant place-name was decided by the Partnership, and not the Panel,
and what they approved was not an SWF spelling (I think we all know which
place-name this is).  I was, and still am, angry about this because, not
only is the Partnership entirely unqualified to comment or decide upon
place-names, but also because members of the Panel were close to agreeing a
compromise form in which non-trad users lose a letter, and trad. users gain
a letter.  My list, mentioned below, derogates from the Partnership's
unacceptable decision, and gives the compromise form we were so close to
agreeing before the matter was taken out of our hands.


When the Panel was founded, its membership was well balanced between users
of traditional and non-traditional Cornish:  now, the only voice for
traditional Cornish connected with the Panel is me.  Nevertheless, the Panel
members do work together quite well.


The Panel has so far decided upon about 300 historic place-names.  Bearing
in mind that we are restricted to the confines of the SWF, I am quite happy
to agree with all bar 16 of these.  I question 12 of them to varying
degrees;  the other 4 (including the example cited above) I absolutely
oppose.  Overall that isn't too bad.


However, the master list is being kept only in the Main Form SWF.  So, to
counter yet another sidelining of traditional Cornish, I am maintaining a
parallel list which presents the agreed names in both main form and
traditional graphs.










On 7 Est 2012, at 11:28, Ray Chubb wrote:

Jenefer, I think you are beginning to sound like a gramophone record stuck
in the grove.


We all know what the Treyarnon agreement was, the point that I have been
making on this forum is that the Partnership is a public body representing
Cornish and the whole of the Cornish language movement but since the removal
of the SWF (t) glossary from the web site there is no indication at all of
what native Cornish looks like.  The (t) glossary was in fact a very poor
indication of traditional spelling but at least it was something.


How can the Partnership accept public money when it represents only those
who think that it is O.K. to tinker wholesale with native forms of Cornish?


I shall certainly be making representations at the next Partnership meeting
to have a page on the web site dedicated to show what various orthographies
look like including those of native writers.  If I am outvoted as I usually
am by the politicians on the Partnership, (including the ones who speak
Cornish) I shall take the matter up with Cornwall Councillors.


On 7 Est 2012, at 10:00, Lowe Jenefer wrote:




Dear all,


I am away working at an event in Brittany at the moment and therefore only
infrequently checking email.  However, I feel I must just set the record
straight. My position and that of MAGA is to work to the agreements made
unless and until those change in any way, via the review. I have sent out
the attached document, produced by the AHG as part of the agreement and
spec, many times, but it continues to be ignored. It has always also been
available on the website along with the spec. It sets out clearly what was
agreed on variants and on traditional graphs and it is that agreement to
which we adhere. The agreement put traditional graphs in place for those who
wish to use them, but was emphatic that this did not create another 'form' -
it wasn't a case of use all or nothing of the traditional graphs. I think
the paper makes the position at the moment absolutely clear. That is why we
are not looking at a dictionary with traditional forms but explaining the
alternatives available within the one dictionary. The online dictionary will
enable searches for traditional graph spellings and should be available,
once a couple of technical issues are resolved.


We are very happy to accept traditional graphs in use - in newsletter
articles for example, but it was never the case that they would be used
officially and we have to stick to the agreements made. 


Michael is right - SWF is not KK, the basis is different and we do need to
keep aesthetic and linguistic points apart. This is exactly why the
agreement at Treyarnon separated out the linguistic variants catered for by
the Middle and Late variants from the aesthetic considerations represented
by the traditional graphs. Trond was very clear on this point and right to
be so.  That is why he originally termed the traditional graphs 'side forms'
- meaning they exist beside and along with the official forms.


And Michael - once again the initial information on the conference is
available in the latest newsletter you have received. Full information will
go out as soon as the details of venue are confirmed.


I may not be online again for a day or two but hope that this will help to
explain why we take the stance we do in support of the agreement as made.


Yn lel,


Jenefer Lowe

Development Manager / Dyghtyer displegya

Cornish Language Partnership / Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek

Cornwall Council / Konsel Kernow

Dalvenie House / Chi Dalvenie

County Hall / Lys Kernow




tel: / pell: 01872 323465

email / ebost: jlowe at cornwall.gov.uk

website / gwiasva : www.magakernow.org.uk  


Gwrewgh agan sewya der Twitter!



Gwrewgh agan kavos der Facebook!  Find us on Facebook! 



The Cornish Language Partnership is funded by the Department for Communities
and Local Government and Cornwall Council.

Arhesans Keskowethyans an Taves Kernewek yw provies gans an Asran rag
Kemenethow ha Governans Leel, ha Konsel Kernow


-----Original Message-----

From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net]
On Behalf Of Daniel Prohaska

Sent: 05 August 2012 16:05

To: Standard Cornish discussion list

Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF (t) and Maga web site


I can't remember. It's likely I wrote to Jenefer or Elizabeth about it.




On Aug 5, 2012, at 3:33 PM, Michael Everson wrote:


> On 5 Aug 2012, at 14:27, Daniel Prohaska wrote:


>> I have offered to make a SWF/t version of the dictionary and my offer has
simply been ignored.


> Who was it who ignored it?


> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/



> _______________________________________________

> Spellyans mailing list

> Spellyans at kernowek.net

> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net



Ray Chubb





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