[Spellyans] SWF (t) and Maga web site

A. J. Trim ajtrim at msn.com
Fri Aug 17 01:03:23 BST 2012

Dan asked, ”What do you think?”

I think that the SWF is almost acceptable as a compromise orthography, providing that the traditional graphs are being used.
I would abandon SWF/K and promote SWF/T as the official form. Those who want to use SWF/K have the burden of justification. SWF/K is easier and less English than SWF/T but SWF/K is also much less Cornish. It should not have official backing or be using public funds. You cannot teach children that SWF/K is Cornish only that it is a modern language based on Cornish. They will quickly loose interest as the historical link is broken.

It is important that the Cornish seen in re-spelt place names matches the official form, and that it looks similar to the traditionally-spelt obviously Cornish names that have always been in use. That way, the language relates to the place, rather than looking alien (e.g. Kammbronn for Cambron or Pennsans / Pednsans for Pensans). 

We are then left with some minor faults in the SWF like the distribution of i and y.

I would have i for long and y for short, and y at the end of a word. An i in polysyllables like pitsa “pizza” would be long with no need of the circumflex. The KS bës/bÿs words would become bes/bis words. You may want to spell these like beis or just have them as unmarked optional spellings as we do for KS triga/trega words.  

As we have seen on this forum, and from new publications in KS, it is clearly superior to mark vowels with diacritics, especially for the letter u. KS does an excellent job at distinguishing the vowels but I believe that the SWF and place-names on signposts will remain diacritic-free for the foreseeable future. Perhaps, we’ll find out next year!

As for -v, I would spell this -f. Stressed -f would then need to be -ff.

As for -dh, I would spell this -th, except where we know it to be voiced. The digraph dh is not a traditional graph any more than hw is. dh deviates from the traditional language. dh should be used only where a th is known to have been voiced (or where it has been generally agreed that it should be voiced), e.g. fedh “faith” but not in words such as menydh. This should be menyth, but that is just my (not very-well informed) opinion.


Andrew J. Trim

From: Daniel Prohaska 
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:25 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] SWF (t) and Maga web site

Dear all, 
The only "advantage" of universal ‹k› and ‹hw› is that it tidies up the mutation table a little. So if we traditional-graphers here want to see traditional graphs supported on par with the so-called main form, or even supercede them, we should work out a teaching guidance system how to teach mutations with traditional graphs. 

The other propaganda issue that the KKesva and KK supporters tend to use is that Welsh has c-only and Breton has k-only so Cornishich should also have an "only" form for /k/. I always like the fact that Cornish was geographically and linguistically the piggy in the middle between W and B, so I always found it appropriate that C should have ‹k› and ‹c›. 

I think we need to put in a group suggestion for the 13Review that says we want traditional graphs to have the same  recognition as the main form, and that it is completely the individual writer's choice whether s/he uses SWF/k or SWF/t.

But since one of Maga's main concerns is the 'number of variants', maybe we should have traditional graphs only and drop SWF/k altogether. What do you think?


On Aug 15, 2012, at 7:08 PM, Hedley Climo wrote:

  Ogh, Jon whek,

  MAGA supports SWF/T by not having it in their dictionary, nor in their signage, nor on their website, nor in their 'taster' sessions…nor anywhere else.

  In the self same way, as Jenefer says, they support *all* the other forms of Cornish: historical MS Cornish, UC, UCR, RLC in its diverse guises, KS etc. And, from what we're seeing, we can look forward to even more 'support' for Traditional Cornish including SWF/T) after 2013, when it will doubtless disappear utterly from MAGA's remit

  Why, that's just how the KKesva and the KKowethas have been supporting 'the whole Revival' since 1987. Did we not hear the 'Big Yin' (or was it the 'Big Yang'?) from the KKowethas as she told us just those same old whethlow at Lostwithiel last October?

  Of course, all that 'support' has worked wonders, as shown by the plethora of fine publications in authentic Cornish produced over that period by Spyrys a Gernow, Agan Tavas, Cussel an Tavas, Evertype, Gwask an Orlewen and others.

  Rak meth ha sham! Fatel yu hedna cales dhe gonvedhes?

  Tullys A Taunton.

  On 2012 Est 15, at 14:13, Jon Mills wrote:

    Dear Jenefer,
    If, as you say, "the point with the glossary is not orthography", then why is it in only one version of the SWF. A decision must have been made not to provide the traditional forms. That decision concerns orthography. You say that "The point with the SWF is to provide a neutral spelling for official use." But the spelling chosen for the SWF Glossary is not neutral. It derogates against those who prefer tradtional forms. You also write, "It does not mean and never has, that other orthographies are not supported." So how precisely do you intend to support other orthographies?
    Yours sincerely,
    Jon Mills  

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