[Spellyans] Disappearance of Cornish placenames from OS maps

Mon Feb 18 10:41:02 GMT 2013

haven't you heard the term "out in all weathers"!

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Ken MacKinnon <ken at ferintosh.org> wrote:

> *Craig and colleagues,*
>
> * *
>
> *Cornwall Highway’s team of Londoners must be pretty illiterate
> Londoners, since the collective noun ‘weather’ does not properly have a
> plural ‘weathers’.  However the common noun ‘wether’  ( a castrated ram –
> not that one such is necessarily involved here)  takes a regular plural
> form ‘wethers’.   Thus no grounds for confusion.*
>
> * *
>
> *Gorhemmynadow – an ken Ken  (Loundreser lettrys)*
>
> * *
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] *On Behalf Of *Craig
> Weatherhill
> *Sent:* 17 February 2013 19:43
>
> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] Disappearance of Cornish placenames from OS
> maps****
>
> ** **
>
> Penwethers ('Cornwall' Highways  team of Londoners now spell it
> "Penweathers", although the Ordnance Survey doesn't.  Yet!) was Penwodhes
> in 1327.  This appears to be pen (head, end , top) + wodhys(<godhys),
> "place of streams").****
>
> ** **
>
> Craig****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On 2013 Whe 17, at 12:47, Janice Lobb wrote:****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> What does Penwethers mean? Is it something to do with trees or (as PH
> argued) something to do with ploughed land****
>
> ** **
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:
> ****
>
> OS has a lot to answer for. I presume they are responsible for changing
> the name of my hamlet from Cooks to Cocks (we have no signs as people with
> a perverted sense of humour keep stealing them). ****
>
> Who, though altered Penwethers to Penweathers near County Hall?****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
> wrote:****
>
> First, let me say that the current 1:100,000 O.S. travel map of Cornwall
> is a disgrace to cartography and, as you say, Ken, the Bartholomew maps
> were vastly better (although still with the odd mistake like showing Zennor
> Quoit in the wrong place).****
>
> ** **
>
> That Oliver chose to base his book on the names shown on the previous
> edition of that OS map was, I think, a mistake because it contains a
> disproportionate number of non-Cornish names.****
>
> ** **
>
> The disappearance of Landewednack is a mystery, especially when you
> consider that this southernmost parish is itself "Landewednack".  It's even
> absent on the current edition of the 1:25,000 map, being replaced by
> "Church Cove", even though it's inland.****
>
> ** **
>
> Church Cove, as a coastal feature, is another modern name, and is absent
> from the 1813 1st edition 1" OS map.  in 1851, the cove was "Perran Vose"
> but later OS maps relocated the name to another cove to the north, now
> "Parn Voose Cove" (that awful tautology again that the OS insists on -
> Perran/Parn is for Por(th) an [Fos]).****
>
> ** **
>
> Tol-Pedn-Penwith:  "Gwennap Head" didn't appear until 1888, and no one can
> work out the origin of this.  The Gwennap family is known in St Levan
> parish but they don't seem to have been landowners at the headland.
> Tol-Pedn-Penwith, in various spellings, appears on all maps prior to 1888.
>  The OS does include the name on the current 1:25,000 map, but as a minor
> name with no real indication as to which feature it represents.  "Gwennap
> Head" is in a larger font.  Tol-Pedn-Penwith is missing from the current
> 1:50,000 map, the quality of which has sadly diminished in recent years.
>  The last few editions show the fogou of Pendeen Vau in entirely the wrong
> place.****
>
> ** **
>
> Just to the E of Penberth Cove, the OS show an offshore reef as "Gazells",
> with the nearby cove as "Le Scathe Cove".  (an) gasel, "the armpit", is
> quite obviously a cove name, reflecting its indented shape.  The Burnewhall
> estate map of 1770 shows that the OS has transposed the two names, as it
> clearly marks the reef as "Lech Skath", (boat ledge).****
>
> ** **
>
> The OS infuriatingly alters spellings, too.  The hill they show as "Carn
> Galver" - a spelling used by the National Trust, etc.  The authentic name
> is "Carn Galva".  The OS clearly do not understand that even the inclusion
> of that final R alters the traditional pronunciation (as, in Cornwall, we
> pronounce final R.  In the Home Counties, they don't - there you will hear
> "solicituh", not "solicitor").****
>
> ** **
>
> You'd never know that, at Botallack Cliffs, "De Narrow Zawn" (OS) is Sawen
> Dynerow, "pennies chasm" - there having been a rich vein of tin there.  Or
> that the nearby Loe Warren is simply "lowarn" (fox) - animal names are
> commonly used for coastal rock features.  Gazick (an gasek - "the mare") is
> evidently another rock name, but the OS now applies it to a cove.****
>
> ** **
>
> Gurnard's Head is a relatively modern English name: there is no indication
> on any map that it was once Ynyal, "desolate".****
>
> ** **
>
> Cape Cornwall is another, coined by chart makers just prior to 1600.  The
> Cornish name can only be found on earlier maps, such as Norden's from 1584.
>  (Kilgoodh Ust - "goose-back at St Just" - a perfect description of its
> very distinctive shape).****
>
> ** **
>
> I could go on….probably for the rest of the day!!  But work calls.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Craig****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On 2013 Gen 29, at 16:16, Ken MacKinnon wrote:****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> *A gowetha-oll,*****
>
> * *****
>
> *A point was recently made on Spellyans regarding the disappearance of
> Cornish place-names from OS maps, and in particular Tol-Pedn-Penwith and
> Landewednack.*****
>
> * *****
>
> *Tol-Pedn-Penwith is certainly present on the recently published 1:25,000
> series.   Tol-Pedn-Penwith is printed on  Explorer 7 Sheet, Land’s End,
> Penzance and St. Ives (dated 1995) at GR 365 214 .  Later editions of this
> sheet are numbered 102.  I would be grateful for information on more
> recently updated editions.*****
>
> * *****
>
> *The place-name Landewednack is indeed absent from Sheet 103 The Lizard,
> Falmouth & Helston (dated  1996) at GR 712 126.   Instead Landewednack
> Church and village are named as ‘Church Cove’.   Again, I would be grateful
> for information on the latest edition.*****
>
> * *****
>
> *Both names occur on the OS 50,000 First Series.  Sheet 203 Land’s End
> and The Lizard have both names on my copy of the map, dated 1974.
>  Landewednack is printed in upright type indicting a main village, as
> compared with Lizard printed in sloping (italic) type, indicating a
> subsidiary village.   I would be grateful to know what the situation is on
> the most recently published edition.  *****
>
> * *****
>
> *Does ‘Church Cove’ as the name of the settlement around Landewednack
> church have any actual currency?  Does anyone know what its inhabitants
> actually call it today?   Does the local council  (now Cornwall Council)
> refer to it as ‘Landewednack’ or ‘Church Cove’?    Is there a settlement
> sign, and if so, what name does it carry?*****
>
> * *****
>
> *The old ‘Bart’s Half-Inch’ series (Sheet 1) featured both
> Tol-Pedn-Penwith and Landewednack, and indeed a wealth of other
> micro-toponymy.   So did its successor the National Map Series at 1:100,000
> scale.  Bartholomews had discontinued this series by 2000, which was a
> great loss and pity.    A map at this scale covering the whole county area
> was extremely useful for all sorts of purposes, and the Ordnance Survey has
> recently published a successor.*****
>
> * *****
>
> *This is the Travel Map at the same 1:100,000 scale, Sheet 1 Cornwall.
> My copy is Edition D, dated 2006.   Neither Tol-Pedn-Penwith nor
> Landewednack is featured, with much else missing from the county’s
> micro-toponymy.  However Church Cove is featured, in a font signifying a
> minor village.   All-in-all I estimate that the map carries about 620
> place-names.  Relief is hinted at by slight hill-shading and layer
> colouring but only for the 200, 600, and 1,000 feet contour intervals.
> Tourist attractions are however copiously featured, and road statuses are
> emphasised.  These are its chief virtues.   Otherwise it is
> cartographically much inferior to its Bart’s predecessors.*****
>
> * *****
>
> *Someone with authority should be making waves about all of this.  The OS
> are supposed to take cognisance of local usage.   If the inhabitants of
> Landewednack have decided to call the village ‘Church Cove’ this would
> explain the substitution, but I think it unlikely that they have done so.*
> ****
>
> * *****
>
> *In Wales the OS gives most of the more important names bilingually.   In
> Scotland the OS is beginning to do something similar In  the Gaelic
> areas.   In the Western Isles the local authority Comhairle nan Eilean went
> over to monolingual Gaelic for its direction and place signage, and the OS
> followed suit.   More recently the council fainthearts reverted to
> bilingual usage for these.  It will be interesting to see what OS does.
> However in Scotland at least the OS does have some sort of public awareness
> and makes an effort to communicate and consult with its public.   What
> happens in Cornwall?*****
>
> * *****
>
> *A few years ago a map was produced on Spellyans with place names in
> Cornish.   The cartography was of a good standard for its scale.    There
> is a case to carry the process a stage or two further.   There would be a
> good level of demand for such a map, and now an increasing number of
> uses.   It would be a useful tool In the process of re-Cornicising
> Cornwall’s place-names, and of establishing an authoritative and
> readily-available source of place-names based upon  sound historical,
> linguistic and toponymic research.   A map at 1:250,000 scale (the old
> ‘quarter-inch’ to the mile) would enable a fulsome level of detail, without
> being too unwieldy as to size.  It would have the further virtue that its
> selection of place-names would be of similar scope to that of Oliver
> Padel’s ‘A Popular Dictionary of Cornish Place-Names’ (1988), in which he
> chose to feature the names on the OS 1:25,000 scale map of Cornwall, some
> 1,000 or so in total. (It thus omits Landewednack itself but includes
> Church Cove, as dating from 1888 and being named from ‘Landewednack church
> above it’, i.e. as a coastal figure and not as a settlement name.)   A
> further resource for mapping is the Institute’s Survey of Cornish
> Place-names.*****
>
> * *****
>
> *I believe that Bart’s can still supply at reasonable rates base maps at
> various scales of a very high cartographic standard for overprinting with
> place-names and other features.  The results are aesthetically attractive
> and highly representative.*****
>
> * *****
>
> *One of the currently available tourist maps of Cornwall is subtitled
> Kernow and has some of its more important names given bilingually.
> However there appears to be little consistency on the spelling conventions
> used for them.   The appearance of Cornish versions of the names on this
> map does not appear to have frightened the horses nor to have depressed
> sales.*****
>
> * *****
>
> *A friend of mine, Roy Pedersen, brought out a Gaelic map of Scotland
> some years ago, and this proved a best seller, running into numerous
> reprints and editions, and spawning a succession of more detailed area
> maps.   I would not expect a similar initiative for Cornish mapping to run
> at a loss.   Such an initiative is long overdue and indeed essential if
> authentic versions of Cornish place-names are to be popularised, in place
> of made-up names and respellings in inappropriate and non-historic
> orthographies.   Otherwise it is Gresham’s Law.*****
>
> * *****
>
> *Gorhemmynadow – an ken Ken*****
>
> * *****
>
> *From:* Spellyans [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] *On Behalf Of *Janice
> Lobb
> *Sent:* 26 January 2013 22:32
> *To:* Standard Cornish discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [Spellyans] use usage etc****
>
>  ****
>
> I don't use Dick's spelling for the same reason - but I find him an
> invaluable guide to pronunciation****
>
>  ****
>
> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 8:55 PM, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
> wrote:****
>
> It's confusing because Dick has spelt this word (and the language in
> general) several different ways since he began to promote Late Cornish.***
> *
>
>  ****
>
> It's why I reluctantly gave up teaching Late Cornish in the 90s.  I'd
> teach my students one thing and, three days later, Dick would change it
> all.  We couldn't keep going like that.  All these years later and he's
> still doing it!****
>
>  ****
>
> Craig****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> On 2013 Gen 26, at 18:25, Daniel Prohaska wrote:****
>
> ** **
>
> Or do you mean ‹ûsya›? This would be /ˈɪʊzjɐ/ and I would write ‹ûs› for
> the noun and leave it to the speaker whether s/he wants to say /ɪʊs/ or
> /ɪʊz/. ****
>
> Dan****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> On Jan 26, 2013, at 4:46 PM, Janice Lobb wrote:****
>
> ** **
>
> would you end the word with s or ss?****
>
>  ****
>
> On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
> wrote:****
>
> A very good question. For the SFW Review I'm proposing <û> as the graph
> for this lexical set. My proposal thus has two vowels with a diacritic
> marker: the afore mentioned <û> for /iu/ in loan words and <ü> for RMC /y/
> ~ RLC /i/ (e.g. <tüs>).
> Dan****
>
>
>
>
> On 26.01.2013, at 15:04, Janice Lobb <janicelobb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > SWF has usyans
> > Dick has (amongst other things) ius
> > How can I achieve Dick's pronunciation with a spelling that is
> compatible with SWF/KS?****
>
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