[Spellyans] "Tribe"

Mon Feb 17 15:55:34 GMT 2020

A pigeon-loft, where they could be fattened up for His Lordship’s next feast.  The inside walls have rows and rows of roosting niches.

Craig

> On 2020 Hwe 17, at 15:38, Clive Baker <clive.baker at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> What is a culverhouse Craig please...(cos I are iggorant)?
> 
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 3:12 PM Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org <mailto:craig at agantavas.org>> wrote:
> Where “hill” really means “slope” or “hillside”, the Signage Panel has been using a number of words: <mena> as the shortened form of <menydh> - “hillside” appears to be its meaning in place-names and street-names- ; <run>, and <riw>.
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> 
>> On 2020 Hwe 16, at 10:49, ken at ferintosh.org <mailto:ken at ferintosh.org> wrote:
>> 
>> A gowetha,
>>  
>> Regarding the translation into Cornish of the English place-name element ‘edge’, the Cornish ‘amal’ might be a possibility, since it relates to a feature with different sloped sides. (Cuestaform)  This is the case with the ‘edges’ flanking the Pennines, and the Weald.   If Mujoven relates to similar slopes either side this would better fit such features as the Lincoln Edge and Nuneaton Ridge.
>>  
>> The Cornish words for hill comprise a group which does not exactly match the English group of ‘hill-words’  in terms of semantic range / meaning  .In much the same way, the group of English words for family relationships does not match the Russian group, which is much larger and more complex, with different semantic range.
>>  
>> These differences tell us something about the cultures of the language-groups who developed the naming groups in the first place.
>>  
>> I wonder how sensitive to this issue is the SWF place-name group  is in providing a translation for a place-name or road with ‘hill’ in it?  i.e. firstly, just what sort of a hill is it, and what then is the best fit from the words available in Cornish?   I wonder just how they would translate Skidden Hill in St Ives compared with, say Camborne Hill.  (Trevithick’s Puffing Devil’ could tackle the latter but would probably find the former more problematic.)
>>  
>> Just a thought – an ken Ken
>>  
>> From: Spellyans <spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net>> On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill
>> Sent: 15 February 2020 22:03
>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net>>
>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] "Tribe"
>>  
>> Oh, I’d love to have a copy of that!  You beauty!  It was that book and its follow-up, ’The Moon of Gomrath’, that gave me the idea for my own Lyonesse Stone trilogy.  I thought: if Garner can do that with one legend of Cheshire, what can I achieve with West Penwith?  I thought about it for years before I actually did it, especially as I didn’t want my books to appear derivative.
>>  
>> Have you read the (eventual) conclusion to Garner’s trilogy, 'Bonelands’?  VERY thought-provoking.
>>  
>> Craig
>>  
>>  
>>> On 2020 Hwe 15, at 12:36, Ian Jackson <iacobianus at googlemail.com <mailto:iacobianus at googlemail.com>> wrote:
>>>  
>>> In my unpublished translation of Alan Garner’s The Weirdstone of Brisingamen I have used An Vùjoven for ‘The Edge’ (referring to Alderley Edge in Cheshire) where the action of the book is set.
>>>  
>>> Ian Jackson
>>>  
>>> From: Spellyans <spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net>> On Behalf Of ken at ferintosh.org <mailto:ken at ferintosh.org>
>>> Sent: 15 February 2020 12:31
>>> To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' <spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] "Tribe"
>>>  
>>> Craig, and colleagues,
>>> I also very strongly back this idea.   These names ate in fact reported in written texts, if that is the criterion for acceptance, as they appear on maps and official documents of all ages, almost invariably dated, and hence provide  dated evidence of sociolinguistic change.
>>>  
>>> A list of such words/elements would thus be invaluable as a source of otherwise missing lexicon, and as a resource for research into linguistic change.
>>>  
>>> A  working list might be a good start on this, Craig, and I would most enthusiastically urge you to undertake it.  I for one would be up for collaboration on its use in linguistic landscape, and glottochronology research.
>>>  
>>> Some while ago I was searching for another word for ‘ridge’.  I knew I had come across one somewhere.  ‘Mujoven’ here fills that gap.
>>>  
>>> An ken Ken
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> From: Spellyans <spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net>> On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill
>>> Sent: 14 February 2020 14:06
>>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] "Tribe"
>>>  
>>> As I’ve always said, Dan, when looking the corpus of Cornish, never forget place-name evidence.  There are numerous words in those that do not appear in what texts remain to us.  Therefore, in my view, they should be regarded as textual evidence.
>>>  
>>> Do words like <kevammok>, “fight, battle”, <kevar>, “joint tillage>, <mujoven>, “ridge” appear in textual work?  I don’t think they do, but here they are in our place-names and field-names.  I can produce a whole list of them if required.
>>>  
>>> Craig
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>> On 2020 Hwe 13, at 09:24, Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com <mailto:daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>> wrote:
>>>>  
>>>> Craig, 
>>>>  
>>>> Thanks for another one of your gems… 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>> On 12.02.2020, at 21:40, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org <mailto:craig at agantavas.org>> wrote:
>>>>>  
>>>>> In ‘Desky Kernowek’, Nicholas cites two words to translate “tribe”: Nance’s <lyth> (< OC <leid>), and <tryb> (Tregear’s <trib>), but there is a third noun that we could readily use in revived Cornish.
>>>>  
>>>> Yes, the OC has ‹leid›, which Ken George and José Calvete have both emended to *loid, which would tie into Welsh ‹llwyth› and Old Irish ‹lucht›, as well as Gaulish ‹luxtos›. Perhaps assuming this emendation from ei to *oi is, though possible, not necessary as we have Middle Breton ‹leiz› (Modern Breton ‹leizh›), so a Cornish *leyth is conceivable. The ei > *oi theory may be supported by another word in the OC ‹luid› “procinctus/furdlingc” meaning “battle-aray”, though this invites questioning.  
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>> This word is <cordh> (commonly reducing to <cor’>), pl. <corthow>, gender unclear.
>>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> This word is usually given as masculine in the Cornish dictionaries, but Welsh ‹cordd› is feminine. 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>> It occurs in two Cornish place-names: Trigg (pagus Tricurius C7; Trigorscire c.881), the Hundred or Keverang of North Cornwall; and Langorthou 1310, the site of Fowey church.  It also occurs in Brittany as Trégor, evidently and like Kernev and Domnonèe,  a cross-channel transference.
>>>>>  
>>>>> <cordh, cor’> also forms part of OC <coscor>, “family, retinue” (place-name: Bownds an Coscar, Towednack 1672); and MC <corlan>, “cemetery” (Welsh: <corddlan>).  Translating as “clan, tribe, family, army”, <cordh> has cognates in Welsh <cordd>, Old Breton <cor> and early Irish <cuire>, “host, troop”.
>>>>>  
>>>>> In the name Trigg, this indicates a Hundred or Keverang that could muster three war-hosts and interestingly enough, this component of Cornwall’s original six Hundreds was later divided into three (Trigg, Lesnewth and Stratton).  Indeed <keverang> itself has cognates in Welsh (<cyfrang>, “meeting, encounter, battle”) and Middle Breton (<cuuranc> “military assembly”).  In Roman Gaul, we also find the Tricorii and the Petrucorii.
>>>>>  
>>>>> It’s also interesting that in these names <try, tri> does not cause 3rd state mutation, but 2nd state.  Furthermore, where it occurs in the hill name Dry Carn (Tricarn 1300), “three (Bronze Age) cairns”, it causes no mutation at all in 6 surviving attestations spanning as many centuries.
>>>>>  
>>>>> I see no reason why <cordh, cor’>, pl. <cordhow> “tribe, clan, war-host” cannot be accepted into revived Cornish.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Craig
>>>>  
>>>> There are more words that have been used for “tribe” is Cornish: 
>>>>  
>>>> ‹ehen› “sort; variety; kind; class; manner; genus; clan; tribe; species; family; kindred; kin; category; genre; strain; type.”
>>>>  
>>>> ‹gwely› “bed; layer; stratum; tribe; family; afterbirth; placenta.”
>>>>  
>>>> ‹kenedhel› “(age-group of family) generation; clan; tribe; kindred; kinsfolk; nation; (kind) race.” 
>>>>  
>>>> ‹kiwses› “(political) state; nation; people; community; tribe; citizens.” (analogous to Welsh ‹ciwdod› < Latin ‹civitate(m)›). 
>>>>  
>>>> ‹cor(dh)› and ‹leyth› which you already mentioned. 
>>>>  
>>>> ‹pobel› “people; folk; race; public; populace; nation; tribe; crowd; inhabitants.” 
>>>>  
>>>> ‹trib› “tribe; nation; genus.”
>>>>  
>>>> ‹tüs› “men; people; persons; folk; humans; human beings; guys; mortals; personages; populace; tribe; family; relatives; nation; wights.” 
>>>>  
>>>> Dan
>>>>  
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