[Spellyans] Fwd: inscribed stones
Craig Weatherhill
craig at agantavas.org
Mon Feb 17 23:20:20 GMT 2020
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] "Tribe"
> Date: 2020 mis Hwevrer 17 21:38:17 GMT
> To: Clive Baker <clive.baker at gmail.com>
>
> With regard to Irish names on our inscribed stones, I do not believe that there was any post-Roman Irish “invasion” as such, but we do have, from ‘Sanas Cormac’, the evidence that, in the mid 5th century, the Uí Liatháin clan from the Cork area came into possession of a Cornish fort, named as ‘Dún maic Liathàin’ that was located ‘i tirib Bretan Cornn', i.e. “in the lands of the Cornish Britons”.
>
> Charles Thomas thought this was Trencrom, but I’m pretty sure that it was the Carnsew Fort, Hayle, perfectly positioned beside the estuary to be a trading centre for imports/exports to and from South Wales and Ireland. Our very earliest inscribed stone (and grave) was found right outside its ramparts (see my list: Hayle). The named Cunaida has an Irish name and was Christian. Three reasons for that conclusion: inscribed stones were exclusively Christian monuments; the inscription defines her age at death as 33 (the same as the lifespan ascribed to Christ); and that the stone seems to have been selected because two mineral veins form a natural cross in its surface.
>
> So, I think that the Ui Liatháin were here to facilitate trade, and especially that which involved speakers of P-Celtic and Q-Celtic. Some of the other inscribed stones with Irish names, like Bleu Bridge (with both father and son names being Irish) may commemorate overland merchants.
>
> The stones that intrigue me are those like Slaughter Bridge (LATINI; MACARI); Lewannick 2 (INGENVI); and St Kew (IVSTI), on which LATINI, ULCAGNI and USTI - all Roman names - are repeated in Irish Ogam script. Who were these men, to be so honoured in an Irish script? The only workable answer I can come up with is that they were British priests, with adopted Roman names, as many had at that time, who had trained for the priesthood in Ireland.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>> On 2020 Hwe 16, at 08:26, Clive Baker <clive.baker at gmail.com <mailto:clive.baker at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for all that info on place names in Penwith sos, and on the carved stones...I never knew there were so many around....was the C Weatherhill who discovered the stone at Paul your own good self mate?...wow...what a fabulous discovery...I would love to have found something like that pard...
>> I am amazed at how many Irish are on our stones or are written in Irish...Why is that Craig...was there a colony ...or trading post here perhaps?
>> And as you say ..our most beautiful carved stone at Madron...I never knew it existed...shame on me
>> kemer wyth
>> Clive
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 10:09 PM Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org <mailto:craig at agantavas.org>> wrote:
>> Spellyans members might like to peruse this, too, especially as the late Prof. Charles Thomas considered the Brythonic names featured some stones to be removed from standard Brythonic to be termed “proto-Cornish”.
>>
>> I may now be totally housebound, dependent on a stair-lift to get upstairs and generally finished in physical terms - no more horses, no more cars - but my efforts haven’t lessened. Emphysema is not a lot of fun. I don’t think I’ll be writing any more books though, apart from the forthcoming (completed) one telling the full story of 1549, warts and all.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> Our most beautifully decorated inscribed stone: Madron Church. Magnificent!
>>
>>
>>> On 2020 Hwe 15, at 21:57, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org <mailto:craig at agantavas.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Your wish is my command, O Ken. At least this is the categorized list for West Penwith place-names and field names, excepting personal names. I’m working on those separately.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> <CategPNEWP.docx>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 2020 Hwe 15, at 12:31, ken at ferintosh.org <mailto:ken at ferintosh.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Craig, and colleagues,
>>>> I also very strongly back this idea. These names ate in fact reported in written texts, if that is the criterion for acceptance, as they appear on maps and official documents of all ages, almost invariably dated, and hence provide dated evidence of sociolinguistic change.
>>>>
>>>> A list of such words/elements would thus be invaluable as a source of otherwise missing lexicon, and as a resource for research into linguistic change.
>>>>
>>>> A working list might be a good start on this, Craig, and I would most enthusiastically urge you to undertake it. I for one would be up for collaboration on its use in linguistic landscape, and glottochronology research.
>>>>
>>>> Some while ago I was searching for another word for ‘ridge’. I knew I had come across one somewhere. ‘Mujoven’ here fills that gap.
>>>>
>>>> An ken Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Spellyans <spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net>> On Behalf Of Craig Weatherhill
>>>> Sent: 14 February 2020 14:06
>>>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] "Tribe"
>>>>
>>>> As I’ve always said, Dan, when looking the corpus of Cornish, never forget place-name evidence. There are numerous words in those that do not appear in what texts remain to us. Therefore, in my view, they should be regarded as textual evidence.
>>>>
>>>> Do words like <kevammok>, “fight, battle”, <kevar>, “joint tillage>, <mujoven>, “ridge” appear in textual work? I don’t think they do, but here they are in our place-names and field-names. I can produce a whole list of them if required.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 2020 Hwe 13, at 09:24, Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com <mailto:daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for another one of your gems…
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12.02.2020, at 21:40, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org <mailto:craig at agantavas.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In ‘Desky Kernowek’, Nicholas cites two words to translate “tribe”: Nance’s <lyth> (< OC <leid>), and <tryb> (Tregear’s <trib>), but there is a third noun that we could readily use in revived Cornish.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, the OC has ‹leid›, which Ken George and José Calvete have both emended to *loid, which would tie into Welsh ‹llwyth› and Old Irish ‹lucht›, as well as Gaulish ‹luxtos›. Perhaps assuming this emendation from ei to *oi is, though possible, not necessary as we have Middle Breton ‹leiz› (Modern Breton ‹leizh›), so a Cornish *leyth is conceivable. The ei > *oi theory may be supported by another word in the OC ‹luid› “procinctus/furdlingc” meaning “battle-aray”, though this invites questioning.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> This word is <cordh> (commonly reducing to <cor’>), pl. <corthow>, gender unclear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This word is usually given as masculine in the Cornish dictionaries, but Welsh ‹cordd› is feminine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It occurs in two Cornish place-names: Trigg (pagus Tricurius C7; Trigorscire c.881), the Hundred or Keverang of North Cornwall; and Langorthou 1310, the site of Fowey church. It also occurs in Brittany as Trégor, evidently and like Kernev and Domnonèe, a cross-channel transference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <cordh, cor’> also forms part of OC <coscor>, “family, retinue” (place-name: Bownds an Coscar, Towednack 1672); and MC <corlan>, “cemetery” (Welsh: <corddlan>). Translating as “clan, tribe, family, army”, <cordh> has cognates in Welsh <cordd>, Old Breton <cor> and early Irish <cuire>, “host, troop”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the name Trigg, this indicates a Hundred or Keverang that could muster three war-hosts and interestingly enough, this component of Cornwall’s original six Hundreds was later divided into three (Trigg, Lesnewth and Stratton). Indeed <keverang> itself has cognates in Welsh (<cyfrang>, “meeting, encounter, battle”) and Middle Breton (<cuuranc> “military assembly”). In Roman Gaul, we also find the Tricorii and the Petrucorii.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s also interesting that in these names <try, tri> does not cause 3rd state mutation, but 2nd state. Furthermore, where it occurs in the hill name Dry Carn (Tricarn 1300), “three (Bronze Age) cairns”, it causes no mutation at all in 6 surviving attestations spanning as many centuries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see no reason why <cordh, cor’>, pl. <cordhow> “tribe, clan, war-host” cannot be accepted into revived Cornish.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>> There are more words that have been used for “tribe” is Cornish:
>>>>>
>>>>> ‹ehen› “sort; variety; kind; class; manner; genus; clan; tribe; species; family; kindred; kin; category; genre; strain; type.”
>>>>>
>>>>> ‹gwely› “bed; layer; stratum; tribe; family; afterbirth; placenta.”
>>>>>
>>>>> ‹kenedhel› “(age-group of family) generation; clan; tribe; kindred; kinsfolk; nation; (kind) race.”
>>>>>
>>>>> ‹kiwses› “(political) state; nation; people; community; tribe; citizens.” (analogous to Welsh ‹ciwdod› < Latin ‹civitate(m)›).
>>>>>
>>>>> ‹cor(dh)› and ‹leyth› which you already mentioned.
>>>>>
>>>>> ‹pobel› “people; folk; race; public; populace; nation; tribe; crowd; inhabitants.”
>>>>>
>>>>> ‹trib› “tribe; nation; genus.”
>>>>>
>>>>> ‹tüs› “men; people; persons; folk; humans; human beings; guys; mortals; personages; populace; tribe; family; relatives; nation; wights.”
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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